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Why are doctors seemingly so incompetent?
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Original post by danny111
that's arbitrary if we pay for it or not. the government could just as well cut NHS tax and increase another form of tax. the point is that when we need the service, it is free.
And I completely do not see your last point. Think about the bit in bold and then what I said about "most people".
And I completely do not see your last point. Think about the bit in bold and then what I said about "most people".
Well a quick google and tax calculation along with HMRC breakdowns suggests if you're earning over about 45k GBP a year you'd be better of paying under the American system, which is known to be ludicrously expensive. So from a value for money viewpoint, were we to use an existing infrastructure to build a system of privately funded healthcare that bettered American value I think "most people" would be very interested as on a scale of British population it would probably come out cheaper paying insurance.
This is all academic, of course. For the record I support healthcare that is state funded. Not because it's cheaper, but because it removes financial incentives for doctors and stops them carrying out many pointless tests to earn more, and makes them focus more on good outcomes for patients.
As a vet, I am constantly amazed by the stories I hear coming out of human healthcare facilities. My colleagues and I are held to such high standards, it is really ridiculous, especially when you consider that a) our patients cannot speak, give us a history, or refine their problems for us and b) they are animals, and therefore we should all really be a lot less wound up if a dog dies due to an error by a vet, than if a human dies because of an error by a doctor. Vets can be taken to court and have our licence to practice threatened simply because our clients disagree with our decision-making or treatment choices, and not even for true medical negligence or failure to provide proper care.
Conversely, I hear about (put bluntly) absolutely epic **** ups in human medicine all the time, with doctors facing no disciplinary proceedings whatsoever.
Examples, if you care to read them:
There are two things I perceive about this situation. One is that a lot of my friends who graduated from medical school in the last year or two are brilliant doctors. They are careful and thorough and always start from the beginning, including a good physical examination. The second is that they seem to be in a really worrying minority. There seems to be a bit of a whiff of arrogance, a feeling that most of Joe Public is a terrible hypochondriac and makes symptoms up for fun, and one general vibe I do seem to get from a lot of medical students is that if a condition isn't common, especially within an age group, then it isn't worth considering on a list of differential diagnoses. If anybody reading this works in medicine and has any explanation for why this is, I would genuinely be really interested to hear the logic behind it. Anybody working in healthcare will have heard the phrase "if you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras", but sometimes rare conditions do crop up. I know I for one would hate to be the person that missed a diagnosis simply because it wasn't "common enough" to bother testing for.
Conversely, I hear about (put bluntly) absolutely epic **** ups in human medicine all the time, with doctors facing no disciplinary proceedings whatsoever.
Examples, if you care to read them:
Spoiler
There are two things I perceive about this situation. One is that a lot of my friends who graduated from medical school in the last year or two are brilliant doctors. They are careful and thorough and always start from the beginning, including a good physical examination. The second is that they seem to be in a really worrying minority. There seems to be a bit of a whiff of arrogance, a feeling that most of Joe Public is a terrible hypochondriac and makes symptoms up for fun, and one general vibe I do seem to get from a lot of medical students is that if a condition isn't common, especially within an age group, then it isn't worth considering on a list of differential diagnoses. If anybody reading this works in medicine and has any explanation for why this is, I would genuinely be really interested to hear the logic behind it. Anybody working in healthcare will have heard the phrase "if you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras", but sometimes rare conditions do crop up. I know I for one would hate to be the person that missed a diagnosis simply because it wasn't "common enough" to bother testing for.
All the doctors i've seen have been absolutely brilliant, including my wonderful GP, and i've had a vast array of random and unrelated illnesses over the years. Every single time he's been right in his diagnosis and i've been referred for scans, tests or to specialists promptly. I can't say i've ever felt uncomfortable or like i'm not being listened to, either.
I feel sorry for GP's - so many illnesses share multiple symptoms and some symptoms are present in thousands of illnesses. If you tell your doctor you have a headache and have no other distinctive symptoms, that could be one of hundreds of things, but chances are it's not anything life threatening, so of course your GP isn't going to jump into assuming that you're going to die.
I feel sorry for GP's - so many illnesses share multiple symptoms and some symptoms are present in thousands of illnesses. If you tell your doctor you have a headache and have no other distinctive symptoms, that could be one of hundreds of things, but chances are it's not anything life threatening, so of course your GP isn't going to jump into assuming that you're going to die.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Vohamanah
I work in medical negligence, and quite honestly, most of the things people try to sue their GP for are utter crap. Speaking from a complete Claimant point of view, 99.9% of the time GPs do an absolutely sterling job.
A lot of people just don't realise that their doctor is not a mind reader (if you don't tell them about your symptoms, they will rightly assume nothing is wrong with you). Also I see a massive number of people who have "self-diagnosed" something on the Internet, and then try to sue their doctor because they won't agree with the diagnosis and prescribe treatment. The amount of time that people send me wikipedia print outs etc to "prove" that their GP has failed to diagnose them with some incredibly rare and fatal illness is pretty ridiculous.
Yes there are serious medical conditions that GPs should pick up. Sometimes they don't, and that's poor practice, but the vast majority of the time they do their job and they do it very well.
Personally I love my current GP. I wasn't thrilled with the manner of my GP at my last surgery, not that he did a bad job, but he wasn't very approachable. I saw a female GP at my current surgery (I tend to prefer female GPs for some reason) about constant headaches I was getting. She gave me the speech on drinking more, reducing stress, painkillers etc, which I completely accept was the right advice. They didn't get any better, so I went back and was randomly given an appointment with a male GP, who was absolutely fantastic,. I thought he'd think I was being a bit of a cissy going back /again/ with something as minor as headaches but he prescribed Amitryptiline, arranged regular follow ups, was really understanding and explained everything really well. If I need to go to the GP again I'll definitely ask for an appointment with him, even if it means taking time off work.
Some people see a diagnosis as a "victory" of some sort. I don't understand that. In my opinion the best result from a trip to the GP with a minor ailment is being told its normal and not to worry about it. You don't need treatment for every tiny little thing.
A lot of people just don't realise that their doctor is not a mind reader (if you don't tell them about your symptoms, they will rightly assume nothing is wrong with you). Also I see a massive number of people who have "self-diagnosed" something on the Internet, and then try to sue their doctor because they won't agree with the diagnosis and prescribe treatment. The amount of time that people send me wikipedia print outs etc to "prove" that their GP has failed to diagnose them with some incredibly rare and fatal illness is pretty ridiculous.
Yes there are serious medical conditions that GPs should pick up. Sometimes they don't, and that's poor practice, but the vast majority of the time they do their job and they do it very well.
Personally I love my current GP. I wasn't thrilled with the manner of my GP at my last surgery, not that he did a bad job, but he wasn't very approachable. I saw a female GP at my current surgery (I tend to prefer female GPs for some reason) about constant headaches I was getting. She gave me the speech on drinking more, reducing stress, painkillers etc, which I completely accept was the right advice. They didn't get any better, so I went back and was randomly given an appointment with a male GP, who was absolutely fantastic,. I thought he'd think I was being a bit of a cissy going back /again/ with something as minor as headaches but he prescribed Amitryptiline, arranged regular follow ups, was really understanding and explained everything really well. If I need to go to the GP again I'll definitely ask for an appointment with him, even if it means taking time off work.
Some people see a diagnosis as a "victory" of some sort. I don't understand that. In my opinion the best result from a trip to the GP with a minor ailment is being told its normal and not to worry about it. You don't need treatment for every tiny little thing.
I do agree with this, my main complaint with GPs is ones who don't read your notes before you go in, and with hospital doctors (particularly students), their generally bad bedside manner.
I know a couple of people who see coming out of the doctors with painkillers or nothing as a loss, and have even said "I don't understand why they won't send me to a hospital", and I really want to just say "What?"
. When I found out I was being sent to hospital, I sat in the waiting room and sobbed in front of everyone, and this was only two months ago, and I couldn't wait to get home so I cried even more when I found out I had to stay in for a while. Personally, when I come out of the doctors with a friendly "it's nothing to worry about" (unless I've been told by my regular doctor that there is something wrong), I am happy. It's when doctors are dismissive and sneering, which they have been in the past, that it is horrible because you feel like they're saying you're being paranoid when, for you, it's a real fear that there is something wrong.
I've had several bad experiences with doctors.
There was one doctor who prescribed me antibiotics for an infection in a cut from where I'd fallen on some broken glass. Four hours later when I started throwing up blood he cancelled all his afternoon appointments and rushed over to our house, told my dad he'd given me the wrong antibiotics and for me to stop taking them and if I hadn't stopped throwing up in 4 hours to take me to A&E. Didn't replace the wrong antibiotics with the right ones though, had to go back three days later when I'd fully recovered with the cut on my foot like 'It's still infected!'
The same doctor about 3 years later diagnosed me with a possible DVT because I had moderate pain in my knee that hadn't gone away for 2 weeks and I was on the pill. 3 hours in A&E to be sent home with a tubigrip and the doctor at A&E was like 'We have a dedicated clinic upstairs for people with suspected DVT, they've just sent me down from there, your GP could have just made you an appointment there for tomorrow morning and you wouldn't have had to wait around, but the pain isn't in the right place and you're only 17 years old so it's very unlikely to be a DVT'. Brilliant.
This doctor's wife (also a doctor at the surgery) has several times tried to take my mum off her antidepressants because when she goes in she 'seems like she's not depressed'. Well yeah love, that's the antidepressants...
Another doctor at the same surgery I had to see for a doctors note to be able to get rest breaks for the same knee pain the first doctor thought was a DVT, which was later diagnosed by a specialist. After 20 minutes of going around and around in circles and me being reduced to tears, he finally listened to more than half a sentence at a time and we were done in 2 minutes.
All three of these doctors saw me for a condition (still undiagnosed) in my hands, the first prescribed ibuprofen even after me saying it gave me indigestion last time and I ended up in hospital with a suspected stomach ulcer, the second two prescribed the same anti-inflammatory drug (obviously different to ibuprofen, can't remember what it was except that it cleared up my pulled muscle in my leg, but did nothing for my hands). The female doctor prescribed it twice with the other doctor prescribing it between those two appointments; was told 'It needs more time to work'. My hands were not and have never been swollen!
A fourth doctor wrote down that I was a hypochondriac with mild pain, after I told him I was sometimes in too much pain to dress myself in the morning and struggled to comb my hair so every morning weighed up whether or not to wear a shower cap and just leave my hair as it is.
It was the fifth GP who sent me for blood tests, an X-Ray, physiotherapy, hand splints and a rheumatology appointment. She is fantastic! There's still no diagnosis, but she's corrected what the fourth guy wrote and put me down as moderate to severe and prescribed strong pain killers for the short-term until there's something that they can do long-term. Going back to see her next week.
There was one doctor who prescribed me antibiotics for an infection in a cut from where I'd fallen on some broken glass. Four hours later when I started throwing up blood he cancelled all his afternoon appointments and rushed over to our house, told my dad he'd given me the wrong antibiotics and for me to stop taking them and if I hadn't stopped throwing up in 4 hours to take me to A&E. Didn't replace the wrong antibiotics with the right ones though, had to go back three days later when I'd fully recovered with the cut on my foot like 'It's still infected!'
The same doctor about 3 years later diagnosed me with a possible DVT because I had moderate pain in my knee that hadn't gone away for 2 weeks and I was on the pill. 3 hours in A&E to be sent home with a tubigrip and the doctor at A&E was like 'We have a dedicated clinic upstairs for people with suspected DVT, they've just sent me down from there, your GP could have just made you an appointment there for tomorrow morning and you wouldn't have had to wait around, but the pain isn't in the right place and you're only 17 years old so it's very unlikely to be a DVT'. Brilliant.
This doctor's wife (also a doctor at the surgery) has several times tried to take my mum off her antidepressants because when she goes in she 'seems like she's not depressed'. Well yeah love, that's the antidepressants...
Another doctor at the same surgery I had to see for a doctors note to be able to get rest breaks for the same knee pain the first doctor thought was a DVT, which was later diagnosed by a specialist. After 20 minutes of going around and around in circles and me being reduced to tears, he finally listened to more than half a sentence at a time and we were done in 2 minutes.
All three of these doctors saw me for a condition (still undiagnosed) in my hands, the first prescribed ibuprofen even after me saying it gave me indigestion last time and I ended up in hospital with a suspected stomach ulcer, the second two prescribed the same anti-inflammatory drug (obviously different to ibuprofen, can't remember what it was except that it cleared up my pulled muscle in my leg, but did nothing for my hands). The female doctor prescribed it twice with the other doctor prescribing it between those two appointments; was told 'It needs more time to work'. My hands were not and have never been swollen!
A fourth doctor wrote down that I was a hypochondriac with mild pain, after I told him I was sometimes in too much pain to dress myself in the morning and struggled to comb my hair so every morning weighed up whether or not to wear a shower cap and just leave my hair as it is.
It was the fifth GP who sent me for blood tests, an X-Ray, physiotherapy, hand splints and a rheumatology appointment. She is fantastic! There's still no diagnosis, but she's corrected what the fourth guy wrote and put me down as moderate to severe and prescribed strong pain killers for the short-term until there's something that they can do long-term. Going back to see her next week.
There's a knack to getting the best out of a gp... I think people are a bit overawed (or something) and don't feed the doc with enough information.
Imo they know a lot of stuff but you've got to help them along a bit i.e. possibly repeating something you think is important if the gp doesn't seem to have picked up on it.
Some of them are just straight out duds though (imo)
Imo they know a lot of stuff but you've got to help them along a bit i.e. possibly repeating something you think is important if the gp doesn't seem to have picked up on it.
Some of them are just straight out duds though (imo)
Original post by madders94
It's when doctors are dismissive and sneering, which they have been in the past, that it is horrible because you feel like they're saying you're being paranoid when, for you, it's a real fear that there is something wrong.
Most of the GPs at my surgery are like this - or at least to people below a certain age. It's odd because at my last surgery they were all extremely friendly and helpful, so maybe the GPs at my current surgery are a little less friendly than I'm used to
I went to see my GP last year because I felt I had depression. When I told her this she gave me this small smile and told me that my symptoms were a common teenage occurrence that everyone goes through, and that I'd grow out of them soon. I left in tears not knowing what to do next. It's been over six months since then and I still don't want to go back because I felt like I was being patronised and dismissed for being 'hormonal'. It's a problem as well because I need to be referred to the mental health team to be treated properly, and I can't unless I go see a GP. I'm going to try and see another GP, but to be honest I feel rather wary about going to see one, because in all of my recent visits there I've been dismissed for reasons such as 'it's a teenage thing'.(I should add that I love the NHS and doctors, and never feel like I'm being patronised at hospital, but GPs in particular always seem to act like I'm some hormonal kid who just needs to be set right. They're not mind-readers but I always bring in a list of symptoms and I don't know what I'm doing wrong
)Original post by Skaði
Most of the GPs at my surgery are like this - or at least to people below a certain age. It's odd because at my last surgery they were all extremely friendly and helpful, so maybe the GPs at my current surgery are a little less friendly than I'm used to I went to see my GP last year because I felt I had depression. When I told her this she gave me this small smile and told me that my symptoms were a common teenage occurrence that everyone goes through, and that I'd grow out of them soon. I left in tears not knowing what to do next. It's been over six months since then and I still don't want to go back because I felt like I was being patronised and dismissed for being 'hormonal'. It's a problem as well because I need to be referred to the mental health team to be treated properly, and I can't unless I go see a GP. I'm going to try and see another GP, but to be honest I feel rather wary about going to see one, because in all of my recent visits there I've been dismissed for reasons such as 'it's a teenage thing'.
(I should add that I love the NHS and doctors, and never feel like I'm being patronised at hospital, but GPs in particular always seem to act like I'm some hormonal kid who just needs to be set right. They're not mind-readers but I always bring in a list of symptoms and I don't know what I'm doing wrong)
I went to see my GP last year because I felt I had depression. When I told her this she gave me this small smile and told me that my symptoms were a common teenage occurrence that everyone goes through, and that I'd grow out of them soon. I left in tears not knowing what to do next. It's been over six months since then and I still don't want to go back because I felt like I was being patronised and dismissed for being 'hormonal'. It's a problem as well because I need to be referred to the mental health team to be treated properly, and I can't unless I go see a GP. I'm going to try and see another GP, but to be honest I feel rather wary about going to see one, because in all of my recent visits there I've been dismissed for reasons such as 'it's a teenage thing'.(I should add that I love the NHS and doctors, and never feel like I'm being patronised at hospital, but GPs in particular always seem to act like I'm some hormonal kid who just needs to be set right. They're not mind-readers but I always bring in a list of symptoms and I don't know what I'm doing wrong
)This. I don't know if maybe it's because in a hospital, you've probably already been assessed by your GP or brought to A&E and been proved that you are actually ill and require treatment, whereas GPs are skeptical as to whether you need treatment or not? It shouldn't be that way
Original post by OU Student
That's just mad. It would have made more sense for your doctor to consult another doctor.
Or looked it up in the BNF!
I have numerous diagnoses. I've noticed over the years that instead of investigating mystery symptoms, everything is blamed on my other diagnoses. Ok, sometimes it is true that some symptoms are a result of these diagnoses; but not always.
As a result of the above, someone managed to miss epilepsy (and then decided not to inform my parents, thanks...) and brain cysts, which can lead to all kinds of other medical problems.
Have also noticed that when it comes to depression and other diagnoses, the other diagnoses are dismissed and they're "all in my head". That makes them no less valid than someone with the same diagnose due to something else.
As a result of the above, someone managed to miss epilepsy (and then decided not to inform my parents, thanks...) and brain cysts, which can lead to all kinds of other medical problems.
Have also noticed that when it comes to depression and other diagnoses, the other diagnoses are dismissed and they're "all in my head". That makes them no less valid than someone with the same diagnose due to something else.
Original post by madders94
This. I don't know if maybe it's because in a hospital, you've probably already been assessed by your GP or brought to A&E and been proved that you are actually ill and require treatment, whereas GPs are skeptical as to whether you need treatment or not? It shouldn't be that way
That's probably it. GPs are probably always rushed for time as well (but then, so are doctors) and no doubt will see loads of cases which are all just nothing. Better safe than sorry, though
(Looking at my 'watched threads' list, I've just realised that I've posted on both 'Why are doctors seemingly so incompetent?' and 'I'm grateful to the NHS because...' Interesting
)Original post by Skaði
That's probably it. GPs are probably always rushed for time as well (but then, so are doctors) and no doubt will see loads of cases which are all just nothing. Better safe than sorry, though
(Looking at my 'watched threads' list, I've just realised that I've posted on both 'Why are doctors seemingly so incompetent?' and 'I'm grateful to the NHS because...' Interesting)
(Looking at my 'watched threads' list, I've just realised that I've posted on both 'Why are doctors seemingly so incompetent?' and 'I'm grateful to the NHS because...' Interesting
)Me too
Original post by Anonymous
I didn't say cure acne scars, I know that. They said absolutely nothing can improve them. I'm wiser now and have done my own research.
I didn't say cure acne scars, I know that. They said absolutely nothing can improve them. I'm wiser now and have done my own research.
Anything you could share? Would be greatly appreciated.
Also, because the modern GP is a relic of the time when we used to have witchdoctors. The only difference is that when they wave their magic wand and tell you you'll feel better they have to give you an aspirin otherwise the placebo effect won't work because we no longer have faith in magic only seemingly scientific medicines.
Earlier this year, my dad went to his GP because he had chronic pain in his side. He was told it was probably his appendix and that he should to go A&E. 3 hours later, he was seen by a junior doctor. 5 hours after that, he'd still not seen anyone in regards to getting admitted.
He discharged himself and went back the next day. 10 hours after going up, he was admitted and operated on. He then spent 4 more days in hospital.
He discharged himself and went back the next day. 10 hours after going up, he was admitted and operated on. He then spent 4 more days in hospital.
Original post by noobynoo
because you're a hypercondriac?
Why don't you actually look at the thread instead of just the title and maybe you will see that NONE of the things I went to discuss are made up, and all are bothering me. Fair enough if I made appointment after appointment to discuss a cold, a headache, or the occasional sore throat, but have I? No. Persistent issues are the only things there...
Maybe you're obnoxious?
Original post by Anonymous
Anything you could share? Would be greatly appreciated.
Depends on the scarring. Most derms push to treat with (CO2) laser, because that's all they sell, but there are several lasers and several types of scarring. What types do you have? Look here for the types of scarring and treatments for them: http://www.acne.org/acne-scar-treatment.html
Because they made me wait 4 years just to remove teeth. Their reason was they can't do anything due to health and safety as I'd recently had a seizure and they needed to ensure I wasn't going to have another one whilst I was having teeth removed.
It took 2 months to get tested and get the all clear.
It took 2 months to get tested and get the all clear.
Some are very bad at their jobs. If you don't like your doctor, request a second opinion or move surgeries.
My surgery was over 4 week waiting times for appointments, doctors were horrible and useless (I'm a chronic pain sufferer, I was told to just take paracetamol!), opening times were 9.30am - 4.30pm (how the hell is someone who works full time supposed to get to the surgery?), waited well over 40 minutes to get answered over the phone, and the surgery itself was disgusting.
So I moved surgery.
My surgery was over 4 week waiting times for appointments, doctors were horrible and useless (I'm a chronic pain sufferer, I was told to just take paracetamol!), opening times were 9.30am - 4.30pm (how the hell is someone who works full time supposed to get to the surgery?), waited well over 40 minutes to get answered over the phone, and the surgery itself was disgusting.
So I moved surgery.
I totally understand, why people who have a good income opt for private healthcare.
Went to the nhs doctor today, spent about 10 minutes waiting.. And when I finally got in there she was so quick to try and get me out the door :/ i was trying to explain why I think I fractured my thumb and she was like yes yes I'll refer you and then told me to book another appointment for the other issue I wanted to resolve. :/ so I have to wait 2 weeks to see a doctor because the current doctor didn't want to "spend more time" resolving my other issue with me :/
Went to the nhs doctor today, spent about 10 minutes waiting.. And when I finally got in there she was so quick to try and get me out the door :/ i was trying to explain why I think I fractured my thumb and she was like yes yes I'll refer you and then told me to book another appointment for the other issue I wanted to resolve. :/ so I have to wait 2 weeks to see a doctor because the current doctor didn't want to "spend more time" resolving my other issue with me :/
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