Catholic church excommunicates 9yr old's mother and doctors – but not accused rapist
Discuss religious, spiritual, and theological issues concerning Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or any other religion.
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Re: Catholic church excommunicates 9yr old's mother and doctors – but not accused rapElaborate.(Original post by Bardamu)
Every part of that is wrong. -
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Re: Catholic church excommunicates 9yr old's mother and doctors – but not accused rapThe Church didn't “strike”.(Original post by Alpharius)
The Catholic church strikes again...
Defending paedophiles, again, and punishing the victims. PR success.
The Church didn't defend the paedophile.
The Church didn't punish the victims. They were excommunicated for their role in an abortion (murder). -
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Re: Catholic church excommunicates 9yr old's mother and doctors – but not accused rapStrike: excommunicate family.(Original post by Bardamu)
The Church didn't “strike”.
The Church didn't defend the paedophile.
The Church didn't punish the victims. They were excommunicated for their role in an abortion (murder).
Defend: not excommunicate rapist.
Punish: prevent the girl having the necessary medical treatment. -
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Re: Catholic church excommunicates 9yr old's mother and doctors – but not accused rapIt was not "necessary medical treatment", it was elective.(Original post by Hypocrism)
Strike: excommunicate family.
Defend: not excommunicate rapist.
Punish: prevent the girl having the necessary medical treatment.
Excommunication latae sententiae is reserved for certain types of wrongdoing by the Church, but this is far from "defending" the others. -
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Re: Catholic church excommunicates 9yr old's mother and doctors – but not accused rapGirls that young are not ready to give birth. She would have been deformed and probably killed. In this way it was treatment, not murder.(Original post by ScheduleII)
It was not "necessary medical treatment", it was elective.
Excommunication latae sententiae is reserved for certain types of wrongdoing by the Church, but this is far from "defending" the others.
Abortion is not universally wrong, in any case, and that's a fallacy of the Catholic church believing in absolute morality, but that's a separate issue. -
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Re: Catholic church excommunicates 9yr old's mother and doctors – but not accused rapI did not say it was murder, but that it was not "necessary"; there could have been a way of her and the unborn baby both surviving.(Original post by Hypocrism)
Girls that young are not ready to give birth. She would have been deformed and probably killed. In this way it was treatment, not murder.
Abortion is not universally wrong, in any case, and that's a fallacy of the Catholic church believing in absolute morality, but that's a separate issue.
I do believe in absolute morality, so I think you are the one in the wrong, but that is not even what I'm debating here. -
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Re: Catholic church excommunicates 9yr old's mother and doctors – but not accused rapMedical genius, are we, then?(Original post by ScheduleII)
I did not say it was murder, but that it was not "necessary"; there could have been a way of her and the unborn baby both surviving.
I do believe in absolute morality, so I think you are the one in the wrong, but that is not even what I'm debating here.
If you have an absolute morality, which track would you put an unstoppable train onto, the one with 5 people tied onto it our the one with 1 person tied onto it? Would you harvest one man's organs killing him to guarantee 5 lives? -
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Re: Catholic church excommunicates 9yr old's mother and doctors – but not accused rapAll organised religions have hypocrisy as a central tenet.
No-one should be surprised that dogma has won out over compassion or reason in this case since dogma is the basis of organised religious. -
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Re: Catholic church excommunicates 9yr old's mother and doctors – but not accused rapAnd I suppose that the British legal system strikes every time it convicts a criminal?(Original post by Hypocrism)
Strike: excommunicate family.
Defend: not excommunicate rapist.
Punish: prevent the girl having the necessary medical treatment.
That is not defending the *alleged* rapist in any way whatsoever.
She wasn't prevented, as she had the treatment. She shouldn't have, because it constituted murder (x2). -
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Re: Catholic church excommunicates 9yr old's mother and doctors – but not accused rapI think you've broken these out before.(Original post by Hypocrism)
Medical genius, are we, then?
If you have an absolute morality, which track would you put an unstoppable train onto, the one with 5 people tied onto it our the one with 1 person tied onto it? Would you harvest one man's organs killing him to guarantee 5 lives?
I wouldn't put a train onto either track.
I know where this is going though, trolley boy. If the train were heading for the five, I'd switch it onto the track with the one. I wouldn't kill a man to take his organs. -
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Re: Catholic church excommunicates 9yr old's mother and doctors – but not accused rapAh! Same human outcome-different moral decision. The definition of relative morality. Thanks very much.(Original post by Bardamu)
If the train were heading for the five, I'd switch it onto the track with the one. I wouldn't kill a man to take his organs.
(btw, trolley boy? wtf?) -
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Re: Catholic church excommunicates 9yr old's mother and doctors – but not accused rapYou are not making sense.(Original post by Bardamu)
And I suppose that the British legal system strikes every time it convicts a criminal?
That is not defending the *alleged* rapist in any way whatsoever.
She wasn't prevented, as she had the treatment. She shouldn't have, because it constituted murder (x2). -
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Re: Catholic church excommunicates 9yr old's mother and doctors – but not accused rapIts a good job religion has little to do with morality.(Original post by ScheduleII)
I did not say it was murder, but that it was not "necessary"; there could have been a way of her and the unborn baby both surviving.
I do believe in absolute morality, so I think you are the one in the wrong, but that is not even what I'm debating here. -
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Re: Catholic church excommunicates 9yr old's mother and doctors – but not accused rapThey are morally distinct. In the first case, the single man's death is unintended. If he were to escape, even better. I'm not trying to wriggle out of it with “he might not die”, because I understand that that isn't the point. I'm simply proving that his death is unintended. This is the doctrine of double effect.(Original post by Hypocrism)
Ah! Same human outcome-different moral decision. The definition of relative morality. Thanks very much.
(btw, trolley boy? wtf?)
In the second case, I would be deliberately killing a man to save others. Unacceptable.
Well, the problems that you're describing are generally known as trolley problems, or trolley dilemmas, are they not? You seem rather fond of them, so I jokingly dubbed you trolley boy. Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. -
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Re: Catholic church excommunicates 9yr old's mother and doctors – but not accused rapI can't really say much to that unless you tell me what you don't understand.(Original post by Maker)
You are not making sense. -
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Re: Catholic church excommunicates 9yr old's mother and doctors – but not accused rapLogically nonsensical. Even by refusing to act, we are making a significant choice about whose life sanctity of life we would rather protect. By aborting, we are favouring the mother's sanctity of life over the foetus's, and by not aborting we are favouring the foetus's sanctity of life over the mother's. How can you not see this?(Original post by ronald_mcdonald)
But that does not change that TWO BEAUTIFUL TWINS HAD THEIR LIVES TAKEN.
The mother was also 9, which would probably give her an even closer connection to the twins. She could have been both a sister and a mother to the girls. After death of course.
You don't understand the sanctity of life. We have no right over it, no matter the circumstances. You have a sick mind to think we can abort two beautiful twins in order to save a girl.
Deuteronomy 25:11-12
"11 If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, 12 you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity." -
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Re: Catholic church excommunicates 9yr old's mother and doctors – but not accused rapJustice is subjective; my idea of it is different from yours. Try not being so arrogant?(Original post by ronald_mcdonald)
Don't blame me for your mind's inability to comprehend justice. -
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Re: Catholic church excommunicates 9yr old's mother and doctors – but not accused rapI understand you are not making sense.(Original post by Bardamu)
I can't really say much to that unless you tell me what you don't understand. -
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Re: Catholic church excommunicates 9yr old's mother and doctors – but not accused rapIf you have an absolute rule that you must minimise the number of deaths caused by your actions should you be unable to avoid human death by any means, then that makes sense. In case 1 the minimum of one person is killed by your action with there being no non-lethal alternative. In case 2 you kill nobody: whatever is causing those five people who could be saved to die is not your responsibility.(Original post by Hypocrism)
Ah! Same human outcome-different moral decision. The definition of relative morality. Thanks very much.
(btw, trolley boy? wtf?)
Usually I think of "relative morality" as people who believe that moral principles vary from time to time and/or from culture to culture, or that "whatever society says at the moment is right" etc. Is this an incorrect definition? I have read philosophy books which mention "Moral Relativism" and they usually define it as something like that.
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