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Panorama highlights racism in football

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    (Original post by fudgesundae)
    There is no need to adjust it in my favour, that is what he said.

    Not really, it is well known that white people must be very careful when travelling in some of the poorer parts of SA. But simply by using common sense, one's risk can be severely reduced (sticking to well lit areas, not going out too late, not getting absolutely hammered etc.)

    The video has shown that fans going to this tournament could be in danger simply by stepping into the stadium to support their team.
    Not really. These matches highlighted were local affairs in the national league with fans of both teams in close proximity and not segregated.

    When I was in Reading, many years ago, I was trapped in the station watching rioting Millwall fans kicking off because Reading had put several past them on the pitch. It was in the papers that they had kicked off at the stadium too and they had been given a police escort to the station.

    That's like a tourist visiting the UK, witnessing this and when he gets home, telling his countrymen 'don't go to a football tournament in the UK because the same will happen to you.'
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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    Not really. These matches highlighted were local affairs in the national league with fans of both teams in close proximity and not segregated.

    When I was in Reading, many years ago, I was trapped in the station watching rioting Millwall fans kicking off because Reading had put several past them on the pitch. It was in the papers that they had kicked off at the stadium too and they had been given a police escort to the station.

    That's like a tourist visiting the UK, witnessing this and when he gets home, telling his countrymen 'don't go to a football tournament in the UK because the same will happen to you.'
    A few Millwall fans getting rowdy ≠ organised nazi salutes and chants of Sieg heil
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    (Original post by fudgesundae)
    A few Readings fans getting rowdy ≠ organised nazi salutes and chants of Sieg heil
    Right, so now tell me how (what I agree are extremely distateful) nazi salutes and chanting of Sieg heil is going to be more dangerous for fans going into a stadium simply to support their team, as opposed to 'rowdy' fans kicking off and wanting to beat the crap out of the opposition simply because they are the opposition?

    Which of those is more dangerous do you think?

    I can tell which you think already, simply by attempting to downplay the actions of the fans at the Reading vs Millwall match as merely 'rowdy'.

    BTW, It was Millwall fans getting rowdy, not Reading, but since you so easily have created the other misconception, I can see how you made the error.
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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    Right, so now tell me how (what I agree are extremely distateful) nazi salutes and chanting of Sieg heil is going to be more dangerous for fans going into a stadium simply to support their team, as opposed to 'rowdy' fans kicking off and wanting to beat the crap out of the opposition simply because they are the opposition?
    What about fans wanting to beat the crap out of their own supporters simply because they are foreigners?

    And the bit I have bolded is exactly what I said earlier with regards to Polish and Ukranian 'ultras' training to beat the crap out of english fans, who are simply going to support their team.

    I can tell which you think already, simply by attempting to downplay the actions of the fans at the Reading vs Millwall match as merely 'rowdy'. BTW, It was Millwall fans getting rowdy, not Reading, but since you so easily have created the other misconception, I can see how you made the error.
    You are correct in which one you think I think is worse. That documentary quite clearly shows that they are capable of much more than anything the Millwall fans would have done at that match.

    w.r.t your last sentence. If you look, I edited my post 8 minutes before your reply was posted. It was a simple mistake which I picked up on and corrected almost immediately. Says a lot about your argument that you are resorting to ad hominem already.
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    (Original post by fudgesundae)
    What about fans wanting to beat the crap out of their own supporters simply because they are foreigners?

    And the bit I have bolded is exactly what I said earlier with regards to Polish and Ukranian 'ultras' training to beat the crap out of english fans, who are simply going to support their team.
    Ah, that little 'foreigners' bit again? I thought you said that (in regards to my South Africa comparison) the fact that locals are targeting foreigners who come as football fans wasn't relevant, you simply have to take care in a foreign country with high crime levels?

    He we go again, posted just for you.

    It is well known that white people must be very careful when travelling in some of the poorer parts of SA. But simply by using common sense, one's risk can be severely reduced (sticking to well lit areas, not going out too late, not getting absolutely hammered etc.)
    So, according to your thinking - it's OK to go to the SA World Cup as long as you apply a bit of 'common sense' and thus reduce the risk of being targeted for crime because the natives see you as a foreigner and target you because of this, but in the case of Poland/Ukraine, it's impossible to reduce the risk, or it is thus so disporportionate so you shouldn't go?

    Nice logic.
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    This is all a plot.

    Uefa wanted to hold the football in poland to highlight the trouble that it is in and to make it have a bad name.

    This is a plot that they do not want you to know!!!! Fact
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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    Ah, that little 'foreigners' bit again? I thought you said that (in regards to my South Africa comparison) the fact that locals are targeting foreigners who come as football fans wasn't relevant, you simply have to take care in a foreign country with high crime levels?

    So, according to your thinking - it's OK to go to the SA World Cup as long as you apply a bit of 'common sense' and thus reduce the risk of being targeted for crime because the natives see you as a foreigner and target you because of this, but in the case of Poland/Ukraine, it's impossible to reduce the risk, or it is thus so disporportionate so you shouldn't go?

    Nice logic.
    In SA the risk is when you are out at night. I never heard of any beatings inside stadiums in SA. In Poland and Ukraine the risk appears to also be present during the day, when in or around the stadium. Even walking around town during the middle of the day in an England shirt could be cause for trouble. So yes the risk is much greater in Poland/Ukraine than in SA. And unless you don't want to go to the football matches (which is stupid, as you are there to go and watch the games) then you can't do much to reduce your risk.
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    (Original post by fudgesundae)
    In SA the risk is when you are out at night. I never heard of any beatings inside stadiums in SA. In Poland and Ukraine the risk appears to also be present during the day, when in or around the stadium. Even walking around town during the middle of the day in an England shirt could be cause for trouble. So yes the risk is much greater in Poland/Ukraine than in SA. And unless you don't want to go to the football matches (which is stupid, as you are there to go and watch the games) then you can't do much to reduce your risk.
    I haven't heard of any beatings in international match competitions in stadiums in Poland/Ukraine either.

    If you want to attempt to draw parallels and apply the Panorama video to national games in major international competitions such as the Euros, you can't simply draw the line at investigating whether there were any stadium beatings in the South Africa World Cup.

    You would need to look at stadium violence and rivalries in local games in South Africa between two-bit nobody teams, which is what the Ukraine video showed.

    By the way, I guarantee you you can be mugged/beaten/raped and murdered in South Africa during the daytime too, simply by being a foreigner walking around in the wrong area.

    The risk of being a victim of crime in SA is so much higher than if you were to add the risks of being a victim of crime in Poland and Ukraine together. You'd be an idiot to believe otherwise.
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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    I haven't heard of any beatings in international match competitions in stadiums in Poland/Ukraine either.

    If you want to attempt to draw parallels and apply the Panorama video to national games in major international competitions such as the Euros, you can't simply draw the line at investigating whether there were any stadium beatings in the South Africa World Cup.

    You would need to look at stadium violence and rivalries in local games in South Africa between two-bit nobody teams, which is what the Ukraine video showed.
    The Ukraine games were between Premiership sides. The game where the Indian students were beaten was between two of Ukraine's biggest clubs. Ukranian domestic football is much bigger than SA domestic football, with Ukranian clubs competing in the CL (I know SA clubs can't play in the tournament, but even if they could, they just aren't good enough).

    By the way, I guarantee you you can be mugged/beaten/raped and murdered in South Africa during the daytime too, simply by being a foreigner walking around in the wrong area.

    The risk of being a victim of crime in SA is so much higher than if you were to add the risks of being a victim of crime in Poland and Ukraine together. You'd be an idiot to believe otherwise.
    We are talking about football related incidents. Of course for a general tourist, SA is a much more dangerous place. In fact Ukraine and Poland are probably very nice and pretty safe countries for people to visit. But in terms of English football fans, it is not as safe.
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    (Original post by fudgesundae)
    The Ukraine games were between Premiership sides. The game where the Indian students were beaten was between two of Ukraine's biggest clubs. Ukranian domestic football is much bigger than SA domestic football, with Ukranian clubs competing in the CL (I know SA clubs can't play in the tournament, but even if they could, they just aren't good enough).
    Ukraine is a relatively two-bit nobody country when it comes to football teams, just as the top teams in the SA leagues are. People in the UK care about as much about top flight football in SA just as much as they care about top flight football in China, Paraguay or Mexico.

    The only reason people are more aware of competions including teams such as Legia Warsaw and Dynamo Kyiv is because UK teams often encounter them in European competitions.

    (Original post by fudgesundae)
    We are talking about football related incidents. Of course for a general tourist, SA is a much more dangerous place. In fact Ukraine and Poland are probably very nice and pretty safe countries for people to visit. But in terms of English football fans, it is not as safe.
    So why are we having this discussion? Why are you excluding non-football related crime from people attending football matches in SA? Is it impossible to conceive that they would be targeted on a completely non-football related matter?
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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    Ukraine is a relatively two-bit nobody country when it comes to football teams, just as the top teams in the SA leagues are. People in the UK care about as much about top flight football in SA just as much as they care about top flight football in China, Paraguay or Mexico.

    The only reason people are more aware of competions including teams such as Legia Warsaw and Dynamo Kyiv is because UK teams often encounter them in European competitions.
    Ukraine's two biggest teams are Shakhtar and Dynamo Kiev. Hardly nobodies in the football world. They are both solid CL opposition, not comparable to the teams in the SA domestic league.

    So why are we having this discussion? Why are you excluding non-football related crime from people attending football matches in SA? Is it impossible to conceive that they would be targeted on a completely non-football related matter?
    Because this thread is about racism in football and around football matches, by football fans. :facepalm:
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    (Original post by fudgesundae)

    Because this thread is about racism in football and around football matches, by football fans. :facepalm:
    So in your view, it matters not a bit that you are more likely as a tourist to be beaten to death in South Africa than you are in the Ukraine, regardless of whether or it's not about football?

    To the person being beaten to death, it doesn't matter if its because of the team you support or because the guy wanted your camera.

    You're still beaten to death, and you've more chance of ending up deader by going to South Africa, regardless of whether you go to watch football or any other tourist matter.

    In any case, this will be easy to resolve.

    Simply wait and watch the Euros, and if the Ukrainians kick off in a big way and beat a load of England fans to death, you'll be able to say 'I told you so'

    But what is much more likely is that just like every major football tournament there are isolated incidents of minor fan violence, nothing more.

    Given our country's history of hooliganism I'm sure loads of foreigners say the same about attending football matches in the UK too.
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    (Original post by fudgesundae)
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...diums_of_Hate/

    If you have the time, then watch this video. It is truly shocking and sickening to see what goes on in some football stadiums across Eastern Europe.

    Just in this video alone they documented Nazi salutes at games, horrific anti-semitic chants and the unprovoked beating of some Indian students by fans of the same team.

    I really cannot understand why UEFA have given Poland and Ukraine the Euro 2012 tournament. Why give it to a place where not everyone can enjoy the football. The worst part of it is that the Ukranian police fail to admit there is a problem. They claim that there have been no racist incidents inside stadiums. However in the 3 or 4 games Panorama went to, they filmed many incidents.

    Thoughts on the video, Poland and Ukraine being given the tournament, or racism in football in general?
    Just watched it now and all I can say is that it was absolutley sickening!

    Did you see when they were beating those indian guys out the stadium no one was doing anything and when one of the indian guys was making his way out everyone was just looking at him and one of the guys he walked past just kicked him, as if it was something normal to do!

    And all the hatred to Jewish people when Hitler attacked their country; yet, they were all supporting him!

    It just goes to show how stupid racists are not knowing anything about history, morals or society.
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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    Of course it is, if you live in a world where only white people can be racist.

    Judging by some of your other posts on TSR you clearly believe that to be the case.
    Okay, I'll have to explain your stupidity......
    In South African football stadiums you Never see black hooligans chanting racial abuse at every white person they see and even attack white people in the crowd. Therefore when the word cup happened in that country, no one gave a warning about going there. However in these countries there is evidence of white hooligans attacking minorities. And this discussion is about racism in the football stadium, not outside it. If white people were attacked in a football stadium because of their race, it would be okay for a white player to warn other whites not to go tgere so stop moaning like the paranoid deluded b*tch that you are. I hope I broke it down to a point where your stupid brain could pick up the information. You'll find plenty of whites living normally in south Africa and there may be racist incIdents against them OUTSIDE the football stadium, but the point is that we're not talking about things outside of football. Now go to a dark corner and cry about how whites are oppressed.
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    (Original post by Theoneoranro)
    Okay, I'll have to explain your stupidity......
    In South African football stadiums you Never see black hooligans chanting racial abuse at every white person they see and even attack white people in the crowd. Therefore when the word cup happened in that country, no one gave a warning about going there. However in these countries there is evidence of white hooligans attacking minorities.
    In South Africa there is evidence of South African nationals attacking minorities too. The motive may not be about football, but it is still racially motivated violence because of the way these minorities are percieved.

    (Original post by Theoneoranro)
    And this discussion is about racism in the football stadium, not outside it. If white people were attacked in a football stadium because of their race, it would be okay for a white player to warn other whites not to go tgere so stop moaning like the paranoid deluded b*tch that you are.
    This discussion is about football fans being the victims of racism and racially motivated violence if they travel to another country for the purposes of watching football.

    Why is it a completely different and acceptable situation to you if England's football fans are attacked outside a stadium rather than inside it? Even the other guy on this thread doesn't attempt to insist on excluding this potential scenario from his arguments.

    You're OK for a black person to say 'don't go to Ukraine or you'll get beaten up by white criminals?'

    Are you OK for a white person to say 'don't go to SA or you'll be murdered by black criminals? How about 'don't go to Pakistan or you'll be kidnapped and held to ransom by asian criminals?'

    (Original post by Theoneoranro)
    I hope I broke it down to a point where your stupid brain could pick up the information. You'll find plenty of whites living normally in south Africa and there may be racist incIdents against them OUTSIDE the football stadium, but the point is that we're not talking about things outside of football. Now go to a dark corner and cry about how whites are oppressed.
    We are talking about the safety of respective countries for English tourists, no matter their race and regardless of the purpose of travel, (as long as it's legal) Ukraine and Poland are many times safer than South Africa.

    You'll find plenty of whites living normally in South Africa in gated communities with armed security guards to protect them, which is the status quo in SA if you are white.

    Nevertheless, nobody said 'don't go to SA World Cup because black criminals will get you'
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    Yeah, watched it on TV. I am embarrassed to know that the Euro's will be held in places with clear racist nazi issues.

    Let's hope that at least the eastern block of the Euro feel embarrassed about this and do something about it.
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    (Original post by PimpinisEasy)
    Why when white people are raped or mugged by black people it is not deemed racist behaviour?
    only white people are racist
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    (Original post by momo26396)
    This is all a plot.

    Uefa wanted to hold the football in poland to highlight the trouble that it is in and to make it have a bad name.

    This is a plot that they do not want you to know!!!! Fact
    If there's a UEFA conspiracy floating around, I'd expect it more to be built around diverting media attention onto racism and shifting it from the corruption rife in FIFA. No one's heard a great deal about that lately, and the names who were shown to be, allegedly, involved are still knocking about at the top of the chain.
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    Russia is just as bad, and don't even get me started on Qatar...Fifa are only interested in one thing, and it's not leaving a 'footballing legacy'.
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    [QUOTE=marcusfox;37870099]In South Africa there is evidence of South African nationals attacking minorities too. The motive may not be about football, but it is still racially motivated violence because of the way these minorities are percieved.



    I actually gave you a long reply to your stupid post, telling you how stupid what your saying is but I edited it out because you're never going to listen. You racist scum won't get anything into your heads, you're going to keep arguing like morons. Haven't you ever wondered why your ideology is on the decline and people are starting to care less about race? Haven't you ever thought that it might be because thinking in the manner you think is uncivilsed and a thing of the past? New ideas come when we start growing our brains.
    Just move on from thinking about race so much, it's stupid.

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