[marcusfox]

(Original post by fudgesundae)
Seeing as this thread is about football hooliganism, then yes the threat of being kidnapped in Afghanistan is completely irrelevant. This thread is about the risk from football hooliganism for English football fans. You need to get this into your head and stop talking about a completely different issue to what I am talking about.

If you want to talk about irrelevancy and exclude general violence that fans travelling may face by narrowing the criteria to suit your argument, the Panorama video is also irrelevant.

It is irrelevant in the same way that you said that English hooliganism in a Millwall vs Reading match was irrelevant to fans travelling to international matches.

The Panorama video is irrelevant because so far as the evidence has presented itself, that I posted to you and which you disregarded wholesale is that:

In most European countries, football-related violence is currently a predominantly internal problem, with the majority of incidents occurring at club-level matches, while supporters of the national team abroad are generally better-behaved. The English are an obvious exception to this rule, and rivalries between some other nations (e.g. Germany and the Netherlands) have led to violence, but these incidents seem recently to have diminished.

So if there's going to be any fan violence at international matches, it's more likely to be carried out by English fans.

(Original post by fudgesundae)
Once again, your lack of reading comprehension astounds me.

Who was moaning about ad hominems in an earlier post? Hypocrite.

(Original post by fudgesundae)
I talked about extreme right wing behaviour. You come back with an example of 'typical' right wing behaviour.

Just to spell it out for you again:

Nazi salutes and chants of Sieg heil are much worse than monkey chanting.

Once again I will reiterate that this thread is about extreme right wing/facist behaviour in football matches in Ukraine and Poland.

You're moaning about reading comprehension and then come out with that?

Monkey chanting is a 'typical' example of (extreme) right wing behaviour.

I don't know who on earth would find that nazi salutes and chants of Sieg heil are extreme right wing behaviour yet try to minimise monkey chanting (and throwing bananas onto the pitch) as only 'typical' (but not extreme) right wing behaviour (and therefore it is somehow not as bad?)

(Original post by fudgesundae)
Cool. Don't see how this is relevant. It isn't like I was saying that we should ignore it?

Yet you are saying that we should ignore the fact that Ukraine and Poland are much safer places than South Africa for anyone travelling, and only focus on the tiny minority of racist football hooligans that turn up at local matches there?

Hang on, this can't have been the first time an international match has been played in one of these countries, have you any news articles about violence between fans at these matches?

If you want to get 'relevant' when talking about dangers fans face when travelling to international matches, yet exclude the general crime related aspect, you need to find evidence of football fans being attacked at international matches in these countries.

Although I bet for every one, I can find five where England fans are the protagonists.

[fudgesundae]

(Original post by whofan)
do i think telling white people not to travel to south africa is racist. no. why, do you?

i am simply pointing out that the double standards are what makes sol campbell's remarks racist.

Nope, but you said you think what Sol Campbell said was. It would have been more appropriate to say that by these standards, what Sol Campbell said was racist.

over 50% of street crime in london is committed by blacks, even though the black population if london is just over 10% -- i bet the eastern europeans just can't wait to become a modern vibrant multicultural city.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_an...United_Kingdom

54% of those accused were Black, note that they were also the race with the largest number of people subsequently acquitted.

Doesn't really stack up to your implications of Western European cities being "no go areas with hate filled immigrant street gangs"

[whofan]

(Original post by fudgesundae)
Nope, but you said you think what Sol Campbell said was. It would have been more appropriate to say that by these standards, what Sol Campbell said was racist.



54% of those accused were Black, note that they were also the race with the largest number of people subsequently acquitted.

Doesn't really stack up to your implications of Western European cities being "no go areas with hate filled immigrant street gangs"

black people make up 15% of the prison population but are only 2% of the demographic -- so your head in the sand attempt to explain away the crime stats looks a bit ridiculous.


of course, if you want to be pedantic about it, it would have been better for me to say that parts of cities are no go areas -- but no doubt those parts will grow in size in the future.

either way, eastern europe most certainly does not want to emulate western european multiculturalism.

[fudgesundae]

(Original post by marcusfox)
If you want to talk about irrelevancy and exclude general violence that fans travelling may face by narrowing the criteria to suit your argument, the Panorama video is also irrelevant.

It is irrelevant in the same way that you said that English hooliganism in a Millwall vs Reading match was irrelevant to fans travelling to international matches.

The Panorama video is irrelevant because so far as the evidence has presented itself, that I posted to you and which you disregarded wholesale is that:

So if there's going to be any fan violence at international matches, it's more likely to be carried out by English fans.

There is no narrowing the criteria to suit my argument. I started the thread, so I know better than you which issue I was trying to highlight.

Also these countries have never hosted such a major international tournament before. This whole thread was questioning the decision to award it to them and questioning whether the occurrences seen in top flight domestic games would rear their heads during the tournament. I think you seem to have majorly missed the point here.

Who was moaning about ad hominems in an earlier post? Hypocrite.

I'll give you that, still doesn't make it untrue.

You're moaning about reading comprehension and then come out with that?

Monkey chanting is a 'typical' example of (extreme) right wing behaviour.

I don't know who on earth would find that nazi salutes and chants of Sieg heil are extreme right wing behaviour yet try to minimise monkey chanting (and throwing bananas onto the pitch) as only 'typical' (but not extreme) right wing behaviour (and therefore it is somehow not as bad?)

You never said extreme in your original post. And IMO, no monkey chants are nowhere near as offensive as the salutes, slogans and chants seen in this video.

I'm going to stop replying now, as I don't actually know what you are arguing.

[fudgesundae]

(Original post by whofan)
black people make up 15% of the prison population but are only 2% of the demographic -- so your head in the sand attempt to explain away the crime stats looks a bit ridiculous.

Cold hard statistics without context mean nothing. Have you even considered potential socio-economic factors?

of course, if you want to be pedantic about it, it would have been better for me to say that parts of cities are no go areas -- but no doubt those parts will grow in size in the future.

Got any proof to back that up? Or just your wild predictions? Is this going to be around the time the blacks and asians take over and Sharia law is imposed on all of us?

either way, eastern europe most certainly does not want to emulate western european multiculturalism.

I would rather live here any day, than in the hotbed of intolerance and fascism found in some eastern european countries.

[marcusfox]

(Original post by fudgesundae)
There is no narrowing the criteria to suit my argument. I started the thread, so I know better than you which issue I was trying to highlight.

You and Panorama were trying to associate the fact that local games have hooligans - as I have shown that they do in every country in Europe - with the danger that fans will face when going to international games.

I don't deny that right wing hooligans exist in the Ukraine, as they do in every country in Europe, but local rivalries have very little relevance when you try to compare it to international tournaments.

(Original post by fudgesundae)
Also these countries have never hosted such a major international tournament before. This whole thread was questioning the decision to award it to them and questioning whether the occurrences seen in top flight domestic games would rear their heads during the tournament. I think you seem to have majorly missed the point here.

So what if they have never hosted a major international tournament before? They have still hosted international football matches (and international club football matches) with next to zero fan violence. Therefore I don't see why it is still such a major question whether fan violence involving local teams means that England fans are at risk.

Even looking at Champions League and Europa League matches, surely English fans have travelled to these countries to watch their clubs play in away games. The Panorama video highlighted that fans of these clubs were violent racists. Have you any evidence that they have done this to visiting supporters of teams like Man City? If not, it would seem to support the hypothesis that it is only local rivalries where the supporters incite violence.

But you will disregard this as it doesn't fit your argument.

(Original post by fudgesundae)
You never said extreme in your original post. And IMO, no monkey chants are nowhere near as offensive as the salutes, slogans and chants seen in this video.

I would say that monkey chanting (and throwing bananas at black players) is at least equally as offensive.

You seem to want to minimise it because it was carried out by England fans, whilst the Nazi saluting and Sieg Heil chanting is carried out by Ukrainian fans?

(Original post by fudgesundae)
I talked about extreme right wing behaviour. You come back with an example of 'typical' right wing behaviour.

You're quibbling over semantics? Fine, but you'll have to find someone else to agree with your opinion that monkey chanting and throwing bananas is merely 'typical' right wing behaviour, but most importantly not 'extreme' right wing behaviour.

[whofan]

(Original post by fudgesundae)
Cold hard statistics without context mean nothing. Have you even considered potential socio-economic factors?



Got any proof to back that up? Or just your wild predictions? Is this going to be around the time the blacks and asians take over and Sharia law is imposed on all of us?



I would rather live here any day, than in the hotbed of intolerance and fascism found in some eastern european countries.

lets say socio-economic factors are the reason for high immigrant crime rates...then so what? it seems pointless importing these people if they are going to cause so many problems regardless of what the reasons are -- i hope eastern europe learns from the mistakes of western europe. thats the only point i am trying to make.

someone said eastern europe would be better off when it becomes more like western europe. i thought this an absurd statement considering the problems multiculturalism is causing and i couldn't resist calling the person out on it.

[Theoneoranro]

(Original post by marcusfox)
Sooo, no examples of me actually being racist then?

And I was wrong about screaming the R word being a Top Trump, you've even gone and outdone yourself - a comparison to Nick Griffin, well, done!

Now we can look at your entire contribution to TSR.

One might think you have some sort of major chip on your shoulder. 119 posts to date and almost half of those are you adding your two cents about racist white people or defending asian racists.

I never defended racist Asians. You and people like you are so stupid, if I said the things that you have said about blacks/pakis you would call me an anti white racist but when I accuse you of racism your like 'it's only racist when whites do it' don't you see the double standards? I hate all racists I don't care what colour they are.

[aqquaintance_sport]

(Original post by fudgesundae)
Nope, but you said you think what Sol Campbell said was. It would have been more appropriate to say that by these standards, what Sol Campbell said was racist.



54% of those accused were Black, note that they were also the race with the largest number of people subsequently acquitted.

Doesn't really stack up to your implications of Western European cities being "no go areas with hate filled immigrant street gangs"

seems like your information comes from the anti-english BBC

[fudgesundae]

(Original post by aqquaintance_sport)
seems like your information comes from the anti-english BBC

And you're banned! haha, brilliant

[fudgesundae]

(Original post by marcusfox)
...

Here you go then: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18363736

Not just isolated to small domestic league games. The Netherlands squad has already experienced racial abuse just whilst training.

UEFA initially tried to brush it off, but have been forced to admit that it did happen.

When it was put to the captain Van Bommel that chants were simply protests against Euro 2012 he said:

"Open your ears. If you did hear it and don't want to hear it, that is even worse."

[marcusfox]

(Original post by fudgesundae)
Here you go then: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18363736

Not just isolated to small domestic league games. The Netherlands squad has already experienced racial abuse just whilst training.

UEFA initially tried to brush it off, but have been forced to admit that it did happen.

When it was put to the captain Van Bommel that chants were simply protests against Euro 2012 he said:

"Open your ears. If you did hear it and don't want to hear it, that is even worse."

I never said that racist chanting wasn't an issue in these countries.

Do you forget that it was you who who were trying to argue that monkey chanting was merely typical right wing behaviour and not 'extreme' right wing behaviour as bad as Sieg heil and nazi saluting?

I talked about extreme right wing behaviour. You come back with an example of 'typical' right wing behaviour.

Just to spell it out for you again:

Nazi salutes and chants of Sieg heil are much worse than monkey chanting.

I then said

"Monkey chanting is a 'typical' example of (extreme) right wing behaviour.

I don't know who on earth would find that nazi salutes and chants of Sieg heil are extreme right wing behaviour yet try to minimise monkey chanting (and throwing bananas onto the pitch) as only 'typical' (but not extreme) right wing behaviour (and therefore it is somehow not as bad?)"

You came back with:

You never said extreme in your original post. And IMO, no monkey chants are nowhere near as offensive as the salutes, slogans and chants seen in this video.

I'm going to stop replying now, as I don't actually know what you are arguing.

Yet you're happy to gleefully jump on an example of monkey chanting in the news as though it illustrates your point perfectly.

I will say that this sort of behaviour is disgusting and should be stamped out.

Still, your whole argument was that England fans, including but not limited to ethnic minorities would be attacked at the Euros by racist hooligans and so shouldn't go.

You were trying to link local fans being attacked by other fans of their local rivals (which happens in every country in Europe) to fans being attacked because they went to an international match.

You posting a news article about incident of racist chanting (although which should rightly be wholly condemned) does not mean you were right and is simply clutching at straws.

[xXxiKillxXx]

(Original post by PimpinisEasy)
Why when white people are raped or mugged by black people it is not deemed racist behaviour?

This clearly shows how much you know about muggers. The VAST majority of muggers (whatever race they be) do not target people based on skin colour.

[fudgesundae]

(Original post by marcusfox)
...

This actually has nothing to do with my original argument, I'm sorry you interpreted it that way.

I just remember you saying that these problems were isolated within domestic football only. I was simply pointing out that it has now happened at an international level before the tournament has even started.

[marcusfox]

(Original post by fudgesundae)
This actually has nothing to do with my original argument, I'm sorry you interpreted it that way.

I just remember you saying that these problems were isolated within domestic football only. I was simply pointing out that it has now happened at an international level before the tournament has even started.

How convenient that you are now dismissing my argument as irrelevant, now that I have knocked yours down, you have no counter. You like to shift the ahem 'goalposts' when it's convenient for you, but when it isn't, it doesn't matter as it's not part of the argument.

You were the one saying that everything but racist attacks on travelling fans was irrelevant when I brought up the example of the relative safety of these countries for fans to travel to, and dismissing 'monkey chanting' as carried out by England fans as only typical right wing behaviour whilst the fans in Poland and Ukraine were extreme far right racists.

So having set your own narrow criteria for relevancy and excluding mine, you can't have it both ways.

So that would be requiring an example of a racist attack on travelling fans inside the stadium, using your own narrow deifinition.

[fudgesundae]

(Original post by marcusfox)
How convenient that you are now dismissing my argument as irrelevant, now that I have knocked yours down, you have no counter. You like to shift the ahem 'goalposts' when it's convenient for you, but when it isn't, it doesn't matter as it's not part of the argument.

You were the one saying that everything but racist attacks on travelling fans was irrelevant when I brought up the example of the relative safety of these countries for fans to travel to, and dismissing 'monkey chanting' as carried out by England fans as only typical right wing behaviour whilst the fans in Poland and Ukraine were extreme far right racists.

So having set your own narrow criteria for relevancy and excluding mine, you can't have it both ways.

So that would be requiring an example of a racist attack on travelling fans inside the stadium, using your own narrow deifinition.

Sorry you are just talking bull**** now. I now remember why I stopped arguing with you...

I was simply showing you that racial abuse has happened on an international level, which you refused to believe was possible.

I never bought up the whole typical vs extreme behaviour in my most recent post. I was simply pointing out that racial abuse is not isolated to polish/ukranian domestic games.

Not sure why you are constantly going on about how monkey chanting is just as bad as Nazi salutes, when it quite clearly isn't.

Sorry but I have completely forgotten what your argument was. Were you saying that we should ignore Nazi salutes? That monkey chanting by England fans (many many years ago) is just as bad as Nazi salutes by polish/ukranian fans?

edit: When I said typical right wing, I probably should have said typical racist/football hooligan behaviour.

[marcusfox]

(Original post by fudgesundae)
Sorry you are just talking bull**** now. I now remember why I stopped arguing with you...

I was simply showing you that racial abuse has happened on an international level, which you refused to believe was possible.

I never bought up the whole typical vs extreme behaviour in my most recent post. I was simply pointing out that racial abuse is not isolated to polish/ukranian domestic games.

Not sure why you are constantly going on about how monkey chanting is just as bad as Nazi salutes, when it quite clearly isn't.

Sorry but I have completely forgotten what your argument was. Were you saying that we should ignore Nazi salutes? That monkey chanting by England fans (many many years ago) is just as bad as Nazi salutes by polish/ukranian fans?

edit: When I said typical right wing, I probably should have said typical racist/football hooligan behaviour.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, it's quite clearly equally as offensive behaviour.

I'm not saying it should be ignored at all. However as regards where violence towards opposing fans is concerned, if you want to argue that fans being targeted for general crime and violence whilst abroad because of their colour is irrelevant, you must also accept monkey chanting at players is as much irrelevant to the argument.

[fudgesundae]

(Original post by marcusfox)
Well, you are entitled to your opinion, it's quite clearly equally as offensive behaviour.

Not sure how monkey chanting is equally as offensive as chants relating to a regime that killed 6 million Jews and countless others. But hey, you are also entitled to your own opinion.

I'm not saying it should be ignored at all. However as regards where violence towards opposing fans is concerned, if you want to argue that fans being targeted for general crime and violence whilst abroad because of their colour is irrelevant, you must also accept monkey chanting at players is as much irrelevant to the argument.

What do you mean about fans being targeted for general crime and violence? I honestly don't remember what were debating and the context of this point.

[marcusfox]

(Original post by fudgesundae)
Not sure how monkey chanting is equally as offensive as chants relating to a regime that killed 6 million Jews and countless others. But hey, you are also entitled to your own opinion.

I see, so because we haven't been able to count the number abused and murdered through slavery, racist chants referencing it is somehow not as important as racism that references nazism? I don't know how either one can be held up as worse than the other, to be honest.

(Original post by fudgesundae)
What do you mean about fans being targeted for general crime and violence? I honestly don't remember what were debating and the context of this point.

You yourself said:

This thread is about the risk from football hooliganism for English football fans. You need to get this into your head and stop talking about a completely different issue to what I am talking about.

I know why you stopped arguing. I rebutted every point you made with rational argument, and I guess you gave up, either because you had nothing further to counter, or whether you were just tired of arguing.

Yet when there is an incident of racist chanting towards a number of Dutch players, you think 'Hey, I can use this to my advantage in support of my argument about football hooliganism towards England fans, and you jump back in.

You also said you had forgotten what my argument was. Perhaps you also forgot the fact that you yourself declared that examples of general crime and violence towards England football fans travelling to countries such as South Africa because of their colour, in fact anything other than an attack on English football fans by local fans inside the stadiums was a 'completely different issue' in relation to 'the risk from football hooliganism for English football fans'.

You need to 'get this into your head and stop talking about a completely different issue'.

[fudgesundae]

(Original post by marcusfox)
I see, so because we haven't been able to count the number abused and murdered through slavery, racist chants referencing it is somehow not as important as racism that references nazism? I don't know how either one can be held up as worse than the other, to be honest.

IMO those Nazi salutes show an ideological following or endorsement of the actions of the Nazi party in the 30s and 40s. Monkey chanting shows extremely racist attitudes, but it is not on the level of trying to emulate or glorify the actions of the Nazis.

...

I will explain how the Netherlands incident is relevant. I know I mentioned England fans, however one of your main arguments was that there have not been racist incidents at an international level, only domestic. Whilst I was trying to argue that there is definitely a threat of racism occurring at the international level. While this incident may not have involved the England team/fans, it shows that the problem is not just present in domestic games but also at the international level. So the fact that we have seen it happen with respect to international football and Euro 2012, it is not too farfetched to assume that there is a possibility of these sorts of events happening to England fans.