[SciFiRory]

(Original post by Rascacielos)
As far as I'm aware there aren't enough supporters of the BNP to create a public holiday out of it. If there were then clearly a large proportion of people must see something in the BNP. Similarly around 3/4 of the population support the monarchy so yes, clearly they see something in it to celebrate. Unless of course you're going to respond and say that all these people have been 'brainwashed' into supporting the monarchy in which case I'd suggest, as I do to every time someone brings that argument up on TSR, that you change the record.

I don't want this to degenerate into an argument about the monarchy because I'm not a royalist myself. I believe in free speech - of course you can express your opinion - but I also believe in respecting others' opinions and whilst you have a right to protest on the Jubilee if you like, I think out of courtesy you should let it go, just for a weekend.

No, our constitution isn't a trivial matter, I agree. But it's also a matter which does not need sorting out immediately through mass protest.

oh don't be silly, brainwashing would be far too obvious, the propaganda machine of the monarchy is far more insidious.

clearly though you don't if you think people shouldn't protest about an issue if people don't like them doing so. I don't respect peoples opinions if I regard them as being immoral. **** off, do they do me the courtesy of not bombarding me with their nationalist/royalist crap nearly every day? no, so **** them. you are a pathetic hypocrite hiding behind high minded rhetoric.

glad you have that attitude, if others did you wouldn't be able to vote so well done.

[Rascacielos]

(Original post by SciFiBoy)
oh don't be silly, brainwashing would be far too obvious, the propaganda machine of the monarchy is far more insidious.

clearly though you don't if you think people shouldn't protest about an issue if people don't like them doing so. I don't respect peoples opinions if I regard them as being immoral. **** off, do they do me the courtesy of not bombarding me with their nationalist/royalist crap nearly every day? no, so **** them. you are a pathetic hypocrite hiding behind high minded rhetoric.

glad you have that attitude, if others did you wouldn't be able to vote so well done.

One day people will realise that the whole "haha, I'm better than you because I can see beyond the propaganda machine/the brainwashing/the secrets/the lies/insert predictable TSR response here" is really quite pathetic.

Although, of course, my innocent mind must have been conditioned into thinking that they don't exist.

[SciFiRory]

(Original post by Rascacielos)
One day people will realise that the whole "haha, I'm better than you because I can see beyond the propaganda machine/the brainwashing/the secrets/the lies/insert predictable TSR response here" is really quite pathetic.

people used to think slavery was great in droves, same with denying women the vote...

now how do we view the people who said that people were wrong to buy into those things?

unless of course you think the suffragettes were "pathetic"?

edit: or another example - which people do we think are "pathetic", those who opposed the Nazi's and accused Hitler of brainwashing and propaganda, or those that supporter Hitler blindly because of propaganda? I await your answer, if it is the former you discredit yourself btw

[Rascacielos]

(Original post by SciFiBoy)
people used to think slavery was great in droves, same with denying women the vote...

now how do we view the people who said that people were wrong to buy into those things?

unless of course you think the suffragettes were "pathetic"?

edit: or another example - which people do we think are "pathetic", those who opposed the Nazi's and accused Hitler of brainwashing and propaganda, or those that supporter Hitler blindly because of propaganda? I await your answer, if it is the former you discredit yourself btw

And that's all on the assumption that the monarchy is 'wrong', whatever 'wrong' means. You're assuming that in 100 years time we're all going to have seen the light and not have the monarchy any more. We might well do, but your analogies to the suffragettes and those in flavour of slavery are retrospective based on what we know or believe to be true now.

I don't know how supporting the former of your Hitler analogies descredits my argument in any way at all. Despite that, 75% of the nation didn't support the Nazis through brainwashing. They just didn't outwardly accuse him of it for fear of their lives. So actually your analogy bears no effect on this argument at all. Also, have you never heard of Godwin's law?

[SciFiRory]

(Original post by Rascacielos)
And that's all on the assumption that the monarchy is 'wrong', whatever 'wrong' means. You're assuming that in 100 years time we're all going to have seen the light and not have the monarchy any more. We might well do, but your analogies to the suffragettes and those in flavour of slavery are retrospective based on what we know or believe to be true now.

I don't know how supporting the former of your Hitler analogies descredits my argument in any way at all. Despite that, 75% of the nation didn't support the Nazis through brainwashing. They just didn't outwardly accuse him of it for fear of their lives. So actually your analogy bears no effect on this argument at all. Also, have you never heard of Godwin's law?

prove otherwise then? otherwise I am just as entitled to think that as you are to think the opposite...is that an apology for those that opposed the suffragettes and the abolition of slavery btw?

not true though is it, it's a nice little pipe dream to pretend they did out of fear, but a lot of awful things were done with a popular mandate, sure eventually this wasn't true of the Nazi's, but the point stands. it bears every affect if you actually think about it rather than dismissing out hand because of sad lame internet loser law and your own arrogant view.

[Rascacielos]

(Original post by SciFiBoy)
prove otherwise then? otherwise I am just as entitled to think that as you are to think the opposite...is that an apology for those that opposed the suffragettes and the abolition of slavery btw?

not true though is it, it's a nice little pipe dream to pretend they did out of fear, but a lot of awful things were done with a popular mandate, sure eventually this wasn't true of the Nazi's, but the point stands. it bears every affect if you actually think about it rather than dismissing out hand because of sad lame internet loser law and your own arrogant view.

Like I said, you're just as entitled to oppose the monarchy as people are to support it. And, like I said, I also happen to share your views to some extent on the monarchy although I like to base my arguments on a little more than the 'moarnchy's propaganda machine.'

Sorry, could you put your last paragraph into intelligible English and form an actual argument out of it, because I think both those elements are missing and I have no idea what you're on about.

[SciFiRory]

(Original post by Rascacielos)
Like I said, you're just as entitled to oppose the monarchy as people are to support it. And, like I said, I also happen to share your views to some extent on the monarchy although I like to base my arguments on a little more than the 'moarnchy's propaganda machine.'

Sorry, could you put your last paragraph into intelligible English and form an actual argument out of it, because I think both those elements are missing and I have no idea what you're on about.

yet apparently I shouldn't protest as it might upset people who like them??? but you are okay with them shoving it in my face all the time? your views seem somewhat confused then. that's not all im basing it on, im pointing out that just because most people support something doesn't mean people shouldn't object to it or protest against it...

I have learning difficulties so if it's not eligible (though it seems so to me?) then sorry. my points are essentially that 1) people do support awful policies/regimes because of propaganda and such, fear doesn't come in to it as much as we might like to think. 2) Godwin's law is really stupid, there are many occasions where using Hitler/Nazi's as an analogy is perfectly sensible or valid, closing your ears at the mention of these things and screaming "godwins law, you lose by default" is just pathetic and shows you have no argument against the analogies themselves, which indeed seems to be when the said law is more often cited by people, I mean, I imagine Fascists rejoiced at the law becoming popular on the web for instance.

[affinity89]

I don't know what to press on the poll.

I am not personally celebrating the jubilee. However, we have had a special assembly from the mayor today and I have to take my class to this grand jubilee picnic tomorrow [in full fancy dress, with a top table of 'kings and queens' from all the schools in the area].

So, I sort of am celebrating it, but only because I am being forced to lol.

[Rascacielos]

(Original post by SciFiBoy)
yet apparently I shouldn't protest as it might upset people who like them??? but you are okay with them shoving it in my face all the time? your views seem somewhat confused then. that's not all im basing it on, im pointing out that just because most people support something doesn't mean people shouldn't object to it or protest against it...

I have learning difficulties so if it's not eligible (though it seems so to me?) then sorry. my points are essentially that 1) people do support awful policies/regimes because of propaganda and such, fear doesn't come in to it as much as we might like to think. 2) Godwin's law is really stupid, there are many occasions where using Hitler/Nazi's as an analogy is perfectly sensible or valid, closing your ears at the mention of these things and screaming "godwins law, you lose by default" is just pathetic and shows you have no argument against the analogies themselves, which indeed seems to be when the said law is more often cited by people, I mean, I imagine Fascists rejoiced at the law becoming popular on the web for instance.

I'm not OK with you protesting over this weekend out of courtesy, not because I care about them being upset but because, quite frankly, I think it's selfish of you to ruin it for others. And just to repeat myself for the ten millionth time, I don't have a problem with you protesting against it at all, just not this weekend.

[SciFiRory]

(Original post by Rascacielos)
I'm not OK with you protesting over this weekend out of courtesy, not because I care about them being upset but because, quite frankly, I think it's selfish of you to ruin it for others. And just to repeat myself for the ten millionth time, I don't have a problem with you protesting against it at all, just not this weekend.

and them ruining other peoples lives with the inequality and **** in our society their worship? that's okay to you? :/

[Rascacielos]

(Original post by SciFiBoy)
and them ruining other peoples lives with the inequality and **** in our society their worship? that's okay to you? :/

It's OK with me for people to have an opinion in favour of the monarchy. Call me old fashioned, but I think you need to grow up and accept that not everyone is going to agree with you.

[CherryCherryBoomBoom]

Ah, I just remembered now that I'm going to be volunteering at a London park with London Ambassadors, so there's my weekend sorted

[SciFiRory]

(Original post by Rascacielos)
It's OK with me for people to have an opinion in favour of the monarchy. Call me old fashioned, but I think you need to grow up and accept that not everyone is going to agree with you.

I already pointed that out, doesn't mean I have to think it is okay or that such people are demi-gods who I dare not upset by the audacity of having an opinion of my own.

[el pollo diablo]

(Original post by Rascacielos)
I'm not OK with you protesting over this weekend out of courtesy, not because I care about them being upset but because, quite frankly, I think it's selfish of you to ruin it for others. And just to repeat myself for the ten millionth time, I don't have a problem with you protesting against it at all, just not this weekend.

You're missing the point of protesting. Protesters choose specific dates and places because they're more likely to get exposure at those times and locations. It's far more meaningful for anti-monarchists to protest during highly pro-monarchy celebrations because it's the best time to bring the issue to the forefront and get their voices heard. I find anti-choicers protesting at clinics where abortions are performed to be outright distasteful but where the hell else would they protest? It's called free speech. Similarly some of the student protests in 2010 took place while the tuition fees were being debated in Parliament. This weekend is the perfect time for anti-monarchists to protest.

The presence of protesters will have absolutely no effect on the people who want to take part in the Jubilee. They've stated where they'll be and at what time so any people who want to avoid them know where not to go, just like I'll be avoiding as much Jubilee stuff as possible over the weekend because I don't want my weekend ruined by the Jubilee. See how simple that is.

You talk of the protesters 'ruining' the Jubilee for the people who want to enjoy it. Well the same argument could be made the other way. Those of us who are not in favour of the monarchy have had bunting and monarchist merchandise every way we turn for the past couple of weeks (not to mention all the Royal Wedding stuff last year). The protests at least are only happening on one day.

[Medic1992]

Just happy having some extra days off work. I don't care about this diamond rubbish... waste of time, effort and money!!

[Rascacielos]

(Original post by el pollo diablo)
You're missing the point of protesting. Protesters choose specific dates and places because they're more likely to get exposure at those times and locations. It's far more meaningful for anti-monarchists to protest during highly pro-monarchy celebrations because it's the best time to bring the issue to the forefront and get their voices heard. I find anti-choicers protesting at clinics where abortions are performed to be outright distasteful but where the hell else would they protest? It's called free speech. Similarly some of the student protests in 2010 took place while the tuition fees were being debated in Parliament. This weekend is the perfect time for anti-monarchists to protest.

The presence of protesters will have absolutely no effect on the people who want to take part in the Jubilee. They've stated where they'll be and at what time so any people who want to avoid them know where not to go, just like I'll be avoiding as much Jubilee stuff as possible over the weekend because I don't want my weekend ruined by the Jubilee. See how simple that is.

You talk of the protesters 'ruining' the Jubilee for the people who want to enjoy it. Well the same argument could be made the other way. Those of us who are not in favour of the monarchy have had bunting and monarchist merchandise every way we turn for the past couple of weeks (not to mention all the Royal Wedding stuff last year). The protests at least are only happening on one day.

Oh, so this is a tit-for-tat thing now? It's not so much the monarchists that I don't want you to upset - frankly, I couldn't care less if you do. The problem I have with protesting on this specific weekend is not really because it's the jubilee, but because it's a double bank holiday and as a result it's a time that inevitably a lot of families are going to be spending together. The street parties, summer fairs and general celebrations are less of an outward support for the monarchy but more just an opportunity for people to spend time with their families and have a nice weekend, against the background of the Jubilee.

Call me idealistic, I think this weekend is meant to be a pleasant one for everyone, monarchists and republicans alike (because no doubt all those who supposedly 'hate' the monarchy will be enjoying the double bank holiday), and a mass protest is really going to spoil it for those people. If it were just a fairly normal day with the Jubilee on it, then sure, protest. I'd probably support you. But I think this weekend is a bit more than just a case of celebrating the jubilee. That's certainly my purpose this weekend anyway and the last thing I want to see on the news is a bunch of people causing trouble across the country.

[Rascacielos]

(Original post by Medic1992)
Just happy having some extra days off work. I don't care about this diamond rubbish... waste of time, effort and money!!

Then why on earth are you taking time off work?

[Rascacielos]

(Original post by SciFiBoy)
I already pointed that out, doesn't mean I have to think it is okay or that such people are demi-gods who I dare not upset by the audacity of having an opinion of my own.

Not at all, but you don't need to be quite so arsey about it either just for the sake of saying "haha, look at me, I'm a rebel!" which I think is what it all boils down to really.

[SciFiRory]

(Original post by Rascacielos)
Not at all, but you don't need to be quite so arsey about it either just for the sake of saying "haha, look at me, I'm a rebel!" which I think is what it all boils down to really.

for you information, I am a committed Socialist and political activist on any number of issues, it has nothing to do with wanting attention, frankly I don't give a **** what people think about me because I care about these things, I go on these things because I care and I think the world can be a better place, you wanna bitch at me for that then whatever.

[el pollo diablo]

(Original post by Rascacielos)
Oh, so this is a tit-for-tat thing now? It's not so much the monarchists that I don't want you to upset - frankly, I couldn't care less if you do. The problem I have with protesting on this specific weekend is not really because it's the jubilee, but because it's a double bank holiday and as a result it's a time that inevitably a lot of families are going to be spending together. The street parties, summer fairs and general celebrations are less of an outward support for the monarchy but more just an opportunity for people to spend time with their families and have a nice weekend, against the background of the Jubilee.

Call me idealistic, I think this weekend is meant to be a pleasant one for everyone, monarchists and republicans alike (because no doubt all those who supposedly 'hate' the monarchy will be enjoying the double bank holiday), and a mass protest is really going to spoil it for those people. If it were just a fairly normal day with the Jubilee on it, then sure, protest. I'd probably support you. But I think this weekend is a bit more than just a case of celebrating the jubilee. That's certainly my purpose this weekend anyway and the last thing I want to see on the news is a bunch of people causing trouble across the country.

Tit for tat?! How is the protest going to spoil anything? How are they going to be 'causing trouble'? You're blowing it way out of proportion. Heaven forbid someone get a glimpse of another person holding a placard saying something they disagree with. It certainly wouldn't ruin my weekend. The other week I found myself driving past a bunch of anti-choicers. I was very annoyed but it didn't ruin my whole day. I see people witnessing in the street often and, while I think it's ludicrious, it doesn't ruin my day.

The Jubilee won't ruin my weekend (and the constant bombardment of information about it hasn't ruined the last couple of weeks of my life, although it has been mildly irritating) so I really don't believe some peaceful protesting is going to spoil this weekend for anyone else.

I don't think you're idealistic; I think your expectations are out of line with the country and culture we live in, and out of line with the very basic right of free speech.