[Kaaal]

(Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
As a liberal, I would say a fair bit of the Bible is out of date. (That said, the Old Testament is much less relevant for Christians anyway.) I am not against homosexuality (Though then again, neither is Christianity: just against homosexual sex)

Religious followers have always bent the rules in their favour. Priests were not allowed to draw blood from the enemy, so rather than using swords in battle, they used a blunt mace to crush the skulls. Do you not think it's slightly strange that there is an old testament and a new one?

[KJane]

(Original post by Kaaal)
Well first of all, "the virgin Mary" was 12 years old when she was married to Joseph, who was between the age of 50 and 70. Then God goes and makes Mary pregnant a year later, without her knowing. So God is pretty much a rapist and a paedophile - two things that are extremely illegal today.

I know this is quite an outrageous thing to suggest, and I'll probably get a bit of abuse for it, but it's always confused me how this religion - which is supposed to be an example for how you live your life - was initiated in this way.

She wasn't married to Joseph at the time, she was already pregnant when he married her because he got his own vision from an Angel after he considered leaving her. And I thought she was visited before hand and agreed to it? I'm abit dubious on labelling it rape.

At around 12 she would have been considered as nearly a woman, she was already betrothed at the time, that was common practice all over the world until a few centuries ago. Lower life expectancy meant women married and started having children as soon as they could as it was more likely for the children to die too. It's wrong by our standards, but it's out of context.

Again, marrying older men was quite common, a man would have established his wealth and hopefully a decent income when he is middle aged upwards. Marrying girls to men their own age could have meant less stability. And middle aged men wouldn't then take brides their own age because they wouldn't have enough time to have a lot of children like a younger woman. In Victorian times, it was common for women to marry men twice their age.

It is strange by our standards, is it any stranger than other parts of the bible? Not really, there are some strange stories in the Bible, and aspects of Mary's life would be extremely common in that time period. Also, theists would consider God above our laws and that humans wouldn't be able to judge his actions as illegal. But that's me probably being a little pedantic.

[weirdnessandcoffee]

There's this thing called the holy spirit which was lets imagine...given from God, created by God to Mary through spirit. It's the idea that God can do anything, the very basis of Christian belief. I know what your saying, even I thought of that at one point- but then I learned of the holy trinity and the idea that God is the father, son and spirit- so religiously speaking, it all fits in.

[icapturethecastle]

In those days, girls were considered 'women' once they'd hit puberty and having periods etc. They didn't really judge it any other way. So to them, it was fine. I think.

[The_Lonely_Goatherd]

(Original post by Kaaal)
Religious followers have always bent the rules in their favour. Priests were not allowed to draw blood from the enemy, so rather than using swords in battle, they used a blunt mace to crush the skulls. Do you not think it's slightly strange that there is an old testament and a new one?

Should it be strange that there is an Old Testament and a New Testament? I don't personally see why that's strange

Anyway, I'm off to uni now. Neg away, haters

[beaver_tron]

(Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
Oh dear, oh dear...

OK, firstly, what makes you think Joseph is that old? I don't recall his age being recorded anywhere.

Secondly, life expectancy was much shorter in those days, so girls would marry much, much younger than we would now.

Thirdly, Mary wasn't married to Joseph at the time of Jesus' conception. Also, it wasn't without her knowing.

Might want to do a bit more research in future

so your saying she concieved a baby out of wedlock ? Nice one thats a sin or whatever now.

And i think if god makes you pregnant he doesnt approach you with a massive dildo... she knew nothing of becoming pregnant.

[Perseveranze]

It's Catholics who consider Joseph 90, maybe more denominations do, not sure.

A year after his wife's death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age. Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates; a miracle manifested the choice God had made of Joseph, and two years later the Annunciation took place.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm

(Original post by beaver_tron)
so your saying she concieved a baby out of wedlock ? Nice one thats a sin or whatever now.

This is why Muslims believe Jesus(pbuh) (as a baby) miraculously spoke up to defend her, otherwise at that time, she would've got some kind of serious punishment.

[Kaaal]

(Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
Should it be strange that there is an Old Testament and a New Testament? I don't personally see why that's strange

Anyway, I'm off to uni now. Neg away, haters

Because humans have changed the bible to suit them.

[mmmpie]

(Original post by najinaji)
Yes it is...

It's less than a third.

(Original post by Matty Smoothie)
Of course it will, aha. Most denominations of Christianity already have; you're telling me the Catholic Church will willingly be the last front for homophobia? The Catholic Church will remain bigoted as the minority? Doesn't sound like something a tolerant and loving religion would do nor something Jesus would stand for - excuse the cliché sentiment

I think if such a scenario were to occur, the CC would adapt their views on homosexuality.

They can't really, it's tied up with big other chunks of doctrine - like the purpose and sanctity of marriage and the sinfulness of contraception. For the foreseeable future it's easier for the catholic church to bury it's head in the sand over homosexuality than have to reconsider everything it says on sexual ethics.

Also, as Lonely said, I wouldn't place that much faith in the Vatican. In 70 years, people who grew up now are cardinals, then you might see something - but not before. There's not exactly political pressure.

[episkopos]

I would not call it rape because God did not have sex with Mary and besides, she was informed about her impending pregnancy. When Mary inquired of the angel how she would get pregnant,
" And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee:.." Luke 1:35

From this verse we see that it was not a natural thing perhaps that is why its so difficult to comprehend in our human minds.

We can ask God for clarification when we meet him one day.

[najinaji]

(Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
What does your discernment, guidance from relevant people and common sense suggest?

It suggests otherwise, but I'm not a Christian. However, I apparently should be a Christian (otherwise I will be doomed to hellfire for all eternity) and thus should believe in the morality of the Bible, which says that it's alright to sleep with and marry 12 year old girls.

[najinaji]

(Original post by mmmpie)
It's less than a third.

This is really unnecessarily pedantic, but 3 is over 2.5, so is closer to 5 than 0, thus meaning you could call 3 'almost 5'.

[Kaaal]

(Original post by mmmpie)
It's less than a third.



They can't really, it's tied up with big other chunks of doctrine - like the purpose and sanctity of marriage and the sinfulness of contraception. For the foreseeable future it's easier for the catholic church to bury it's head in the sand over homosexuality than have to reconsider everything it says on sexual ethics.

Also, as Lonely said, I wouldn't place that much faith in the Vatican. In 70 years, people who grew up now are cardinals, then you might see something - but not before. There's not exactly political pressure.

It's actually four:

Thou shalt have no other gods
No graven images or likenesses
Not take the LORD's name in vain
Remember the sabbath day

They're all about him.

[Left Hand Drive]

(Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
Oh dear, oh dear...

OK, firstly, what makes you think Joseph is that old? I don't recall his age being recorded anywhere.

Secondly, life expectancy was much shorter in those days, so girls would marry much, much younger than we would now.

Thirdly, Mary wasn't married to Joseph at the time of Jesus' conception. Also, it wasn't without her knowing.

Might want to do a bit more research in future

(Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
Oh dear, oh dear...

OK, firstly, what makes you think Joseph is that old? I don't recall his age being recorded anywhere.

Secondly, life expectancy was much shorter in those days, so girls would marry much, much younger than we would now.

Thirdly, Mary wasn't married to Joseph at the time of Jesus' conception. Also, it wasn't without her knowing.

Might want to do a bit more research in future

Doesn't the bible say Noah was 900 years old....

OP, God ruthlessly murdered thousands of frogs just teach the Egyptians a lesson do think he gives to ****s about raping?

[Kaaal]

(Original post by episkopos)
I would not call it rape because God did not have sex with Mary and besides, she was informed about her impending pregnancy. When Mary inquired of the angel how she would get pregnant,
" And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee:.." Luke 1:35

From this verse we see that it was not a natural thing perhaps that is why its so difficult to comprehend in our human minds.

We can ask God for clarification when we meet him one day.

If God asked Mary to give birth to Jesus, as you claim, what if she had said no?

[sammy-lou]

(Original post by Kaaal)
Oh I know. But how it is supposed to have happened is basically magic. If you were told that Jack and the Beanstalk was a religious event, would you believe it?

No, it's not magic. Christians believe that God is omnipotent, so an immaculate conception is entirely possible. I know that sort of sounds like 'magic', but for people who have that religious belief it is something entirely different.

I don't need convincing, I'm not religious anymore and while you make a sort of valid point, I think that the whole social context of the time that Jesus was supposed to have been conceived is the most important factor here - as everyone else has been saying

[Laauu]

As Christians our greatest commandment was to love God and love one another..

Even in your opinion that it isn't true, surely there are worse things to do then to follow a life that is lived with a love for other people.

In regards to making Mary pregnant, if God created the universe, including us and our reproductive organs, I think him to be capable of doing what in human terms is impossible.

[The Polymath]

(Original post by Kaaal)
Well first of all, "the virgin Mary" was 12 years old when she was married to Joseph, who was between the age of 50 and 70. Then God goes and makes Mary pregnant a year later, without her knowing. So God is pretty much a rapist and a paedophile - two things that are extremely illegal today.

I know this is quite an outrageous thing to suggest, and I'll probably get a bit of abuse for it, but it's always confused me how this religion - which is supposed to be an example for how you live your life - was initiated in this way.

Not really a rapist..

[Left Hand Drive]

(Original post by Laauu)
As Christians our greatest commandment was to love God and love one another..

Even in your opinion that it isn't true, surely there are worse things to do then to follow a life that is lived with a love for other people.

In regards to making Mary pregnant, if God created the universe, including us and our reproductive organs, I think him to be capable of doing what in human terms is impossible.

He also created Caner and aids and a whole host of painful and horrible way to die. Face it God is a dick.

[Kaaal]

(Original post by Laauu)
As Christians our greatest commandment was to love God and love one another..

Even in your opinion that it isn't true, surely there are worse things to do then to follow a life that is lived with a love for other people.

In regards to making Mary pregnant, if God created the universe, including us and our reproductive organs, I think him to be capable of doing what in human terms is impossible.

Religion has been the number one reason for starting wars in history. How very loving. People have killed under the name of God even though one of his commandments is "Thou shalt not kill", oh the irony.

And as for your second point, this is the reason why it is basically impossible to talk sense into a christian - they just claim it all makes sense because it was the doing of God. Have we ever seen this God? For all we know, Jesus was an attention seeking lunatic.