[Harolinho]

Here's a few queeries for y'all:

1. Say somehow little Mary, at the age of 12, was somehow inseminated with Gods seed. Aren't there a few practical issues?

Firstly: Isn't 12 a bit young for puberty? To the extent to which it's actually possible for the womb to hold a baby, or even an egg to be capable of proper fertilization.

Secondly: If she was a virgin is it even possible for her to give birth? Because of the Heiman wouldn't it all get a bit... well.

Thirdly: How can any christian who lives in the modern world actually believe in this immaculate conception, when clearly it contradicts so many scientific rules and principles, it's just wrong.

2. Why are so many christians against IVF when it's probably the only way immaculate conception could be possible? And virgin birth. If God time traveled and IVF'd Mary everythings sorted right?

[chickenonsteroids]

God's magic sperm sorted everything for Mary.

[Hylean]

(Original post by Harolinho)
Here's a few queeries for y'all:

1. Say somehow little Mary, at the age of 12, was somehow inseminated with Gods seed. Aren't there a few practical issues?

Firstly: Isn't 12 a bit young for puberty? To the extent to which it's actually possible for the womb to hold a baby, or even an egg to be capable of proper fertilization.

Secondly: If she was a virgin is it even possible for her to give birth? Because of the Heiman wouldn't it all get a bit... well.

Thirdly: How can any christian who lives in the modern world actually believe in this immaculate conception, when clearly it contradicts so many scientific rules and principles, it's just wrong.

2. Why are so many christians against IVF when it's probably the only way immaculate conception could be possible? And virgin birth. If God time traveled and IVF'd Mary everythings sorted right?

1. No, it's not too young. It's perfectly possible.

2. Yes, yes it is. Unlikely, but still perfectly possible and the hymen doesn't make you a virgin.

3. Because it doesn't contradict.

Most importantly, the Immaculate Conception does not refer to a virgin birth.

[big-bang-theory]

(Original post by Harolinho)
Here's a few queeries for y'all:

1. Say somehow little Mary, at the age of 12, was somehow inseminated with Gods seed. Aren't there a few practical issues?

Firstly: Isn't 12 a bit young for puberty? To the extent to which it's actually possible for the womb to hold a baby, or even an egg to be capable of proper fertilization.

Her age isn't given in the bible, 12 is probably a lower bound. Contemporary Rome would have the age closer to 14 as a lower bound of eligible for marriage as a girl. Even assuming Jewish customs were younger (I'd have to look into it) they'd be likely based on competence physically to give birth.

(Original post by Harolinho)
Secondly: If she was a virgin is it even possible for her to give birth? Because of the Heiman wouldn't it all get a bit... well.

People break the heiman by accident I doubt it's going to pose a significant problem to pregnancy.

(Original post by Harolinho)
Thirdly: How can any christian who lives in the modern world actually believe in this immaculate conception, when clearly it contradicts so many scientific rules and principles, it's just wrong.

I think that's kind of the point? If it was a perfectly normal event it wouldn't really be a miracle would it?

(Original post by Harolinho)
2. Why are so many christians against IVF when it's probably the only way immaculate conception could be possible? And virgin birth. If God time traveled and IVF'd Mary everythings sorted right?

Something to do with playing God and overstepping our bounds as naturally human or some such.

[Hypocrism]

(Original post by big-bang-theory)
Her age isn't given in the bible, 12 is probably a lower bound. Contemporary Rome would have the age closer to 14 as a lower bound of eligible for marriage as a girl. Even assuming Jewish customs were younger (I'd have to look into it) they'd be likely based on competence physically to give birth.



People break the heiman by accident I doubt it's going to pose a significant to pregnancy.



I think that's kind of the point? If it was a perfectly normal event it wouldn't really be a miracle would it?



Something to do with playing God and overstepping our bounds as naturally human or some such.

"Breaking the hymen" is actually an anatomical myth. The hymen under normal anatomy shouldn't cover the vaginal entrance, doesn't need to be "broken" by a penis, and doesn't necessarily rupture or change at all during sex. Also, even if it was a hymen imperforatus (developmental abnormality where it covers the entire vaginal opening) it would rupture very easily when the vaginal opening stretches during birth.

[Algorithm69]

The Immaculate Conception was not the Virgin Birth. I mean, come on, I'm an atheist but the ignorance some of us show on rudimentary religious matters is really embarrassing sometimes.

[Gofre]

1) The youngest documented birth of a child without cesarian ranges from six to eight. Twelve is comparatively quite late.

2) As stated above, the hymen is quite easily broken, especially if Mary spent extended periods of time riding a donkey as the carol says.

3) Immaculate conception is a scientific possibility, with or without divine intervention. For further reading look at parthenogenesis, which is essentially self cloning in the species that utilise it.

Just to clarify, I think the suggestion that the Virgin Birth happened is at best unsubstantiated and at worst utterly ludicrous, I'm just playing devil's advocate with regards to the main criticisms raised

[tc92]

(Original post by Harolinho)
Here's a few queeries for y'all:

1. Say somehow little Mary, at the age of 12, was somehow inseminated with Gods seed. Aren't there a few practical issues?

Firstly: Isn't 12 a bit young for puberty? To the extent to which it's actually possible for the womb to hold a baby, or even an egg to be capable of proper fertilization.

Secondly: If she was a virgin is it even possible for her to give birth? Because of the Heiman wouldn't it all get a bit... well.

Thirdly: How can any christian who lives in the modern world actually believe in this immaculate conception, when clearly it contradicts so many scientific rules and principles, it's just wrong.

2. Why are so many christians against IVF when it's probably the only way immaculate conception could be possible? And virgin birth. If God time traveled and IVF'd Mary everythings sorted right?

Firstly, setting aside the ignorance of the Immaculate Conception being Mary's birth not Jesus's!

Nonetheless, on the point you actually want to talk about anyway, on "thirdly", if it is meant to be a miracle: the whole point of them is precisely that they clearly contradict so many scientific rules and principles, and it seems just wrong. That's why it's a miracle. Whether or not you believe in it, that's what a miracle is, and if it could be explained away through scientific theory, it would cease to be so.

[Harolinho]

(Original post by Algorithm69)
The Immaculate Conception was not the Virgin Birth. I mean, come on, I'm an atheist but the ignorance some of us show on rudimentary religious matters is really embarrassing sometimes.

Alright, alright, sorry for being ignorant. I thought I'd cleverly put two and two together. But surely still the virgin birth would require immaculate conception? Although while immaculate conception would not necessarily require virgin birth

[aljolson]

(Original post by Harolinho)
Here's a few queeries for y'all:

1. Say somehow little Mary, at the age of 12, was somehow inseminated with Gods seed. Aren't there a few practical issues?

Firstly: Isn't 12 a bit young for puberty? To the extent to which it's actually possible for the womb to hold a baby, or even an egg to be capable of proper fertilization.

Secondly: If she was a virgin is it even possible for her to give birth? Because of the Heiman wouldn't it all get a bit... well.

Thirdly: How can any christian who lives in the modern world actually believe in this immaculate conception, when clearly it contradicts so many scientific rules and principles, it's just wrong.

2. Why are so many christians against IVF when it's probably the only way immaculate conception could be possible? And virgin birth. If God time traveled and IVF'd Mary everythings sorted right?

Sexual intercourse is not nescessary for impregnation. There is nothing immaculate about Mary's (supposed) conception. Plenty of girls under the age of twelve have given birth, obviously without good medical care, a lot would probably die as well.

[OSharp]

(Original post by Harolinho)
Here's a few queeries for y'all:

1. Say somehow little Mary, at the age of 12, was somehow inseminated with Gods seed. Aren't there a few practical issues?

Firstly: Isn't 12 a bit young for puberty? To the extent to which it's actually possible for the womb to hold a baby, or even an egg to be capable of proper fertilization.

Not really in females this is not uncommon, its just less common in modern cultures such as the ones we see today because we live so much longer and due to child protection etc.

(Original post by Harolinho)

Secondly: If she was a virgin is it even possible for her to give birth? Because of the Heiman wouldn't it all get a bit... well.

Its not made of steel, they can and often do break on their own and I certainly believe a baby would be more than able to do that.

(Original post by Harolinho)

Thirdly: How can any christian who lives in the modern world actually believe in this immaculate conception, when clearly it contradicts so many scientific rules and principles, it's just wrong.

To be honest if there where a god then birth without intercourse would be entirely possible (immaculate conception is something else altogether and is really just ideological) . its not exactly as amazing as parting an entire sea with the wind or turning water into wine.

(Original post by Harolinho)

2. Why are so many christians against IVF when it's probably the only way immaculate conception could be possible? And virgin birth. If God time traveled and IVF'd Mary everythings sorted right?

I think you're confusing IVF with stem cell research. I haven't met many Christians who are against this. the point of IVF is to enable a child to be born, that doesn't contradict any rules about the fact that 'every sperm is sacred' as Monty python so eloquently put it.


Look I am an atheist but you've got to come up with a better argument than that. having one that wasn't based on quasi scientific statements about the impossibility of biological phenomena would be a start.

(Original post by aljolson)
Sexual intercourse is not nescessary for impregnation. There is nothing immaculate about Mary's (supposed) conception. Plenty of girls under the age of twelve have given birth, obviously without good medical care, a lot would probably die as well.

I have never actually heard of anyone getting pregnant without having penetrative sex, I suppose in theory it is possible but sperm isn't that good at surviving outside and then it somehow has to make its way to an egg its a really slim chance

[aljolson]

(Original post by OSharp)
Not really in females this is not uncommon, its just less common in modern cultures such as the ones we see today because we live so much longer and due to child protection etc.



Its not made of steel, they can and often do break on their own and I certainly believe a baby would be more than able to do that.



To be honest if there where a god then birth without intercourse would be entirely possible (immaculate conception is something else altogether and is really just ideological) . its not exactly as amazing as parting an entire sea with the wind or turning water into wine.



I think you're confusing IVF with stem cell research. I haven't met many Christians who are against this. the point of IVF is to enable a child to be born, that doesn't contradict any rules about the fact that 'every sperm is sacred' as Monty python so eloquently put it.


Look I am an atheist but you've got to come up with a better argument than that. having one that wasn't based on quasi scientific statements about the impossibility of biological phenomena would be a start.




I have never actually heard of anyone getting pregnant without having penetrative sex, I suppose in theory it is possible but sperm isn't that good at surviving outside and then it somehow has to make its way to an egg its a really slim chance

There was a girl in, I believe, Germany who got pregnant, after being abused by a relative whilst she was asleep, she was still a virgin.

[adamrules247]

As said above, the Immaculate Conception refers to the conception of the Virgin Mary. The Incarnation refers to the conception of Jesus.

[sammy-lou]

(Original post by Harolinho)
Alright, alright, sorry for being ignorant. I thought I'd cleverly put two and two together. But surely still the virgin birth would require immaculate conception? Although while immaculate conception would not necessarily require virgin birth

No, the immaculate conception by definition refers to the birth of the Virgin Mary from her mother. So Jesus' birth was not an immaculate conception, because he was not Mary.

[Harolinho]

(Original post by sammy-lou)
No, the immaculate conception by definition refers to the birth of the Virgin Mary from her mother. So Jesus' birth was not an immaculate conception, because he was not Mary.

I know it refers to an event but doesn't also refer to a process by which the virgin Mary was free from original sin? If Jesus was also conceived without original sin that conception is immaculate.

[Hylean]

(Original post by Harolinho)
I know it refers to an event but doesn't also refer to a process by which the virgin Mary was free from original sin? If Jesus was also conceived without original sin that conception is immaculate.

You could make that argument, but the term "Immaculate Conception" is only used in reference to Mary's birth.

[jmj]

(Original post by Harolinho)
Here's a few queeries for y'all:

1. Say somehow little Mary, at the age of 12, was somehow inseminated with Gods seed. Aren't there a few practical issues?

Well, we're not specifically told that God inseminated Mary with his seed- we're not told how exactly Mary got pregnant, but the Bible has no hint of anything sexual going on. Plus the Bible says that God is fundamentally spirit, so He is not physically male.

(Original post by Harolinho)
Firstly: Isn't 12 a bit young for puberty? To the extent to which it's actually possible for the womb to hold a baby, or even an egg to be capable of proper fertilization.

We're never really told Mary's age- I would guess quite young from the culture of the time, but we're certainly not told that she's twelve. She could easily have been sixteen or even older, the Bible just doesn't say. Besides, puberty in girls happens much earlier than in boys. I think quite a few 12 year old pregnancies have been documented.

(Original post by Harolinho)
Secondly: If she was a virgin is it even possible for her to give birth? Because of the Heiman wouldn't it all get a bit... well.

I think so, the anatomy in girls are different. Hymens are different shapes and some girls don't have hymens at all. Besides, since God somehow enabled Mary to get pregnant, I doubt this would pose a particular issue for God.

(Original post by Harolinho)
Thirdly: How can any christian who lives in the modern world actually believe in this immaculate conception, when clearly it contradicts so many scientific rules and principles, it's just wrong.

Because it's a miracle Christians don't believe this sort of thing can happen naturally. Christians know that normally intercouse needs to happen for pregnancy. But Christians also believe in an all-powerful God, who created the world and everything in it, including all its laws and principles and is fully in control over it. He is therefore easily able to manipulate those laws and principles for His own purposes. All you therefore need to believe for a virgin birth is that God exists and He is able to interact in human history.

(Original post by Harolinho)
2. Why are so many christians against IVF when it's probably the only way immaculate conception could be possible? And virgin birth. If God time traveled and IVF'd Mary everythings sorted right?

[aljolson]

All the posts here about Mary's conception are quite irrelevant. I myself thought it was about the conception of christ. It just goes to show that Mary's conception is of no consequence, as god could have chosen any woman to be the mother of christ. Mary is irrelevant.

[sammy-lou]

(Original post by Harolinho)
I know it refers to an event but doesn't also refer to a process by which the virgin Mary was free from original sin? If Jesus was also conceived without original sin that conception is immaculate.

Hylean's post above covers what I was going to reply anyway!

[Hylean]

(Original post by aljolson)
All the posts here about Mary's conception are quite irrelevant. I myself thought it was about the conception of christ. It just goes to show that Mary's conception is of no consequence, as god could have chosen any woman to be the mother of christ. Mary is irrelevant.

Well, given the Immaculate Conception explicitly refers to why Mary and only Mary was born without sin and thus was the only possible carrier for Jesus, I think it is rather important. Clearly Mary was not irrelevant and we should use the correct terminology. Just because people assume the Immaculate Conception refers to Jesus doesn't actually mean it does.