[blue n white army]

Sorry if this is a standard thread. Basically i 100% dismiss that there is a god dislike religion a lot. However had a discussion this evening about religion etc which got me thinking.

If heaven and hell did exist and god was waiting for me when i died would the fact that i didn't worship him prevent me from getting into heaven?

I think i am a good person kind considerate helpful don't steal murder or any other crimes. I do that cos of my own moral compass not cos a book told me to. Surely i would be allowed in?

Also if i was allowed in surely this makes worshipping god pointless? and religious people have effectively wasted their sunday mornings?

[Perseveranze]

No.

And I don't think the worshiping part is what matters most here, I think it's the acknowledgment of your Creator that's more important, which can define a person's potential exit into hell or heaven.

You also need to try and look at it from the Divines perspective (obviously we can never emulate how it actually is). You create humans, you give them substance, guidance, protection - you send them messengers with clear messages of their existence - and the humans decide they are mad men and this is all the work of nature and physical laws.

I can personally see the issue here.

[sammy-lou]

(Original post by BabyfacedDom)
Sorry if this is a standard thread. Basically i 100% dismiss that there is a god dislike religion a lot. However had a discussion this evening about religion etc which got me thinking.

If heaven and hell did exist and god was waiting for me when i died would the fact that i didn't worship him prevent me from getting into heaven?

I think i am a good person kind considerate helpful don't steal murder or any other crimes. I do that cos of my own moral compass not cos a book told me to. Surely i would be allowed in?

Also if i was allowed in surely this makes worshipping god pointless? and religious people have effectively wasted their sunday mornings?

Bible says no.

Makes me think Heaven must be a pretty sparsely populated place; what with that condition, plus all the believers who don't get in because they haven't repented their sins or whatever.

I watched this documentary recently:
http://documentaryheaven.com/deborah-13-servant-of-god/

It's really interesting and quite frightening. This little girl's logic is that everyone should serve the Lord, because if you don't, then you will either die and go to Hell, or die and nothing will happen, and if you do, you will either die and go to Heaven or die and nothing will happen. So if you believe in God then you can't lose. Have a watch of it if you get a chance!

[RandZul'Zorander]

From my own experience it seems to depend on who you talk to. Some will say no. Others will say if you acknowledge him when He judges you then you can still be saved...Idk some people give some very complicated and convoluted explanations/answers.

[MillyPixie]

If you're a true non-believer then as far as you're concerned, there is no heaven. However, doesn't the bible also say to forgive each other all short-comings - wouldn't the deity guarding the gate be the most forgiving of them all?

[ChampEon]

If you're a true Muslim or Christian then you shouldn't answer yes or no because you should realise that ONLY GOD KNOWS AND DECIDES WHO GOES TO HEAVEN.

[anonstudent1]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
No.

And I don't think the worshiping part is what matters most here, I think it's the acknowledgment of your Creator that's more important, which can define a person's potential exit into hell or heaven.

You also need to try and look at it from the Divines perspective (obviously we can never emulate how it actually is). You create humans, you give them substance, guidance, protection - you send them messengers with clear messages of their existence - and the humans decide they are mad men and this is all the work of nature and physical laws.

I can personally see the issue here.

Don't you think its massively unfair that someone born to say a Chinese family is pretty much destined for hell, while some one born to a Pakistani family will in all likelihood eventually end up in heaven?

[sammy-lou]

(Original post by MillyPixie)
If you're a true non-believer then as far as you're concerned, there is no heaven. However, doesn't the bible also say to forgive each other all short-comings - wouldn't the deity guarding the gate be the most forgiving of them all?

Ah, but St Peter guards the pearly gates, and he was a bit of a tosser - what with all that denying Jesus business...

[ChampEon]

(Original post by BabyfacedDom)
Sorry if this is a standard thread. Basically i 100% dismiss that there is a god dislike religion a lot. However had a discussion this evening about religion etc which got me thinking.

If heaven and hell did exist and god was waiting for me when i died would the fact that i didn't worship him prevent me from getting into heaven?

I think i am a good person kind considerate helpful don't steal murder or any other crimes. I do that cos of my own moral compass not cos a book told me to. Surely i would be allowed in?

Also if i was allowed in surely this makes worshipping god pointless? and religious people have effectively wasted their sunday mornings?

I don't know about other religions, but Muslims believe everyone's good deeds and bad deeds will be weighed on Judgement Day. If you have more rewards than sins then you will spend an eternity in paradise, and if the other way round then an eternity in hellfire. It's all about your intentions e.g. whether you chose to reject God as opposed to just losing faith, whether you gave to charity to show off as opposed to giving out of goodwill etc. Most importantly, if you ever believed in God but purposely chose to betray him for earthly desires, well, then that's the worst sin of all. So basically no one can truly know who goes to heaven. We just do our best to get there, be it through good intentions or prayer.

[miser]

It would depend on the God. Christians generally believe that a non-believer wouldn't get into heaven because part of the criteria for getting in that's given in the Bible is that a person must accept Jesus as their saviour. I'm not certain about Judaism and Islam on this point, but I would guess that they would have a similar stance. However, it is contested between different Christians whether or not a person that simply hasn't ever heard of Christianity would get into heaven simply by virtue of being a good person, but I don't think that there is any biblical evidence to support the idea that they would. Christians that are of the opinion that a virtuous man that has not heard of Christianity would get into heaven I think believe so because they believe God to be fair and that sending a non-believer to hell for the non-crime of not having heard of Christianity is not fair, and therefore that God would allow these people into heaven.

[Steevee]

Depends on which denomination of which religion you believe.

Islam and Catholocism say no. So does Judaism I believe, though I may be wrong. The more progressive Christian denominations say yes.

But to be honest, who gives a monkeys? If God exists as Islam and Catholocism describe him he's a grade A douchebag anyway and I'd rather chill with all the cool kids in Satan's playground.

[Retrodiction]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
No.

And I don't think the worshiping part is what matters most here, I think it's the acknowledgment of your Creator that's more important, which can define a person's potential exit into hell or heaven.

You also need to try and look at it from the Divines perspective (obviously we can never emulate how it actually is). You create humans, you give them substance, guidance, protection - you send them messengers with clear messages of their existence - and the humans decide they are mad men and this is all the work of nature and physical laws.

I can personally see the issue here.

Belief isn't a choice, though. I can read around all the arguments and evidence, try to pray and follow the tenets of a certain religion, and the resulting belief I'm left with at the end of this journey is not in any way subject to choice.

[miser]

(Original post by sammy-lou)
It's really interesting and quite frightening. This little girl's logic is that everyone should serve the Lord, because if you don't, then you will either die and go to Hell, or die and nothing will happen, and if you do, you will either die and go to Heaven or die and nothing will happen. So if you believe in God then you can't lose. Have a watch of it if you get a chance!

More like if you die and nothing happens then you've wasted your only life in servitude of an imaginary being. And of course there is a third scenario that you die and you are greeted by the wrong god who might not treat you so nicely. (Pascal's wager)

Edit: Neggers believe that Pascal's wager is a good argument?

[anonstudent1]

(Original post by arnoob)
A lot of Chinese people are Christian and so are part of one of the 3 abrahamic religions so they believe in the same god.

Congrats on completely missing the point.
And no polls estimate the largest part of the population roughly 60% to be Atheist, while estimating 5% to be Christian. Whereas lets say Pakistan has over 95% Muslims.
But anyway the point of the question was do you think its unfair that someone born to a non-Abrahamic household will most likely end up in hell, while someone born to an Islamic family will most likely eventually end up in heaven, regardless of the life they live. People from these households have been put at a massive disadvantage through no fault of there own.

[sammy-lou]

(Original post by miser)
More like if you die and nothing happens then you've wasted your only life in servitude of an imaginary being. And of course there is a third scenario that you die and you are greeted by the wrong god who might not treat you so nicely. (Pascal's wager)

I know! I wouldn't say brainwashing is 'common' in religion as a whole, but this is one example where she has clearly been indoctrinated to that degree.

[miser]

(Original post by sammy-lou)
I know! I wouldn't say brainwashing is 'common' in religion as a whole, but this is one example where she has clearly been indoctrinated to that degree.

I don't know, I guess it depends what you call brainwashing. It's essentially drilled into you for years until it feels natural, and at that point it's difficult to let go of. Think I will watch the video.

[Skinny3600]

If "repenting" for your sins and converting to religion is how you get to heaven, I'd gladly go to hell.
Why would I wan't to go to a place which is littered with murderers and pheadophiles who "Repented" and were "Forgiven of their sins".

What a moronic system.

[GooeyLouii]

I think that anything any religious manuscript should be disregarded, how can you trust any one person or group of people to transfer the word of the divine to man, when we can sin.

If there is a heaven and hell, my belief is that you'll be judged on your actions, not on whether you suck up to the holy, if that were the case then god must have some ego.

For example, you spend your life dedicated to charity, but don't worship a god, should you then go to hell because you haven't thanked a god who hasn't shown himself, for ushering in your species millions of years ago, and would that then not make god evil, or corrupt for having such an ego.
or what about people who have severe medical conditions wherein they can't comprehend the idea of god and religion, does that then make them all bound for hell?

What's more than likely to happen is when all the bishops of the world go to hell I can't imagine god being to happy with them for profiting, killing, and being a general nuisance in his name.

[Reform]

(Original post by Skinny3600)
If "repenting" for your sins and converting to religion is how you get to heaven, I'd gladly go to hell.
Why would I wan't to go to a place which is littered with murderers and pheadophiles who "Repented" and were "Forgiven of their sins".

What a moronic system.

You're still going to end up with murderers and paedophiles who haven't repented their sins in an environment no individual can bear.

Tbh, I'd rather take the former.

[MrCarmady]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
No.

And I don't think the worshiping part is what matters most here, I think it's the acknowledgment of your Creator that's more important, which can define a person's potential exit into hell or heaven.

You also need to try and look at it from the Divines perspective (obviously we can never emulate how it actually is). You create humans, you give them substance, guidance, protection - you send them messengers with clear messages of their existence - and the humans decide they are mad men and this is all the work of nature and physical laws.

I can personally see the issue here.

"messengers with clear messages of their existence" is what i take most issue with here. the historicity of jesus is a) disputed, but mainly b) doesn't confirm the existence of god. there is insufficient evidence for belief. on the contrary, most assertions made by abrahamic religions have been revised in the face of philosophical and scientific challenges. even the ultimate argument "everything has a creator" poses two unanswerable questions: "then why is it accepted that god created himself?" and "why should i align myself with one given religion when there's not any more evidence for it than any other religion, including so-called crazy cults like scientology and dead religions like ancient greek polytheism?"

(Original post by sammy-lou)
Bible says no.

Makes me think Heaven must be a pretty sparsely populated place; what with that condition, plus all the believers who don't get in because they haven't repented their sins or whatever.

I watched this documentary recently:
http://documentaryheaven.com/deborah-13-servant-of-god/

It's really interesting and quite frightening. This little girl's logic is that everyone should serve the Lord, because if you don't, then you will either die and go to Hell, or die and nothing will happen, and if you do, you will either die and go to Heaven or die and nothing will happen. So if you believe in God then you can't lose. Have a watch of it if you get a chance!

that's called pascal's wager, and is stupid. from the religious viewpoint, god is omniscient and so would know you believe in him just because you're hedging your bets, and are thus insincere in your belief -> deserve to go to hell. from the non-religious viewpoint, the likelihood that a specific religion is the correct kind of theism is basically zero, and so the outcome matrix makes non-belief more attractive.