[BeanofJelly]

Depends who you ask. I tried asking God but he didn't get back to me.

[Monzystar]

(Original post by BabyfacedDom)
Sorry if this is a standard thread. Basically i 100% dismiss that there is a god dislike religion a lot. However had a discussion this evening about religion etc which got me thinking.

If heaven and hell did exist and god was waiting for me when i died would the fact that i didn't worship him prevent me from getting into heaven?

I think i am a good person kind considerate helpful don't steal murder or any other crimes. I do that cos of my own moral compass not cos a book told me to. Surely i would be allowed in?

Also if i was allowed in surely this makes worshipping god pointless? and religious people have effectively wasted their sunday mornings?

if God does exist he surely would know what ones heart is like. I can go and act like a good religious person and read the books and pray, some will see me as going to heaven but I might end in Hell because my heart detested this, however, only god can judge this. its ones heart that matters and their morals. anyone can read books and pray and go straight to hell if it does exist.

[Christianlady]

(Original post by Carter78)
The point Denett was making was that the superstitious belief that an act of praying could heal someone physically, is essentially the same as believing the sacrifice of an animal will similarly result in good health. - The belief is the same, even if the actions are considerably different.

Hello Carter,

Even if a person doesn't believe in God or deities, it is scientifically observed that prayer can most definitely contribute to healing, since prayer involves faith and positivity. Faith (which is similar to hope) and having a positive outlook do wonders for a person, whereas doubt and despair lead to depression, and negativity crushes the will to live.

The following link provides different case studies where prayer was a variable:

http://health.howstuffworks.com/well...r-healing1.htm

His point was that of course Christians would not slaughter an animal, but why not?

Again, this point does not take into consideration the documented fact that the children of Israel, under Moses, were commanded by God to slaughter animals in sacrifices. One who understands the history of Christian beliefs would understand that Jesus, a Jewish man who taught in the Temple in Jerusalem (before it was destroyed by the Romans) and taught in the synagogues, was among his people who were offering animal sacrifices. Mary and Joseph, for example, offered animal sacrifices according to the Law:

Luke 2 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...+2&version=NIV
(I boldened some.)

"22 When the time came for the purification rites required by the Law of Moses, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord 23 (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord”[Exodus 13:2,12]), 24 and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: “a pair of doves or two young pigeons.”[Lev. 12:8]

Praying, or slaughtering animals, are both superstitious practices intended to help the healing process.

Slaughtering animals in specific ways/times were for the children of Israel not a healing method, but rather a law to be obeyed.

His point was to provoke Christians to think about why they pray

.

His point shows as well his not understanding of the foundations of Christian beliefs, which is Judaism. It is indeed important for anyone to think about why they pray (most people who pray for others do so because they care for someone) but killing an innocent animal is much different than praying asking God or deities for healing for a person one cares about, or do you think they are the same?

Why would they disagree with the act of sacrifice as practiced by other religions (possibly on the grounds that Christians would think it's a waste of time and wouldn't work), but then still commit a similar leap of faith when praying?

Christians who understand the foundation of Christian beliefs: Judaism, do not think that sacrificing animals is a "waste of time and wouldn't work" but rather that it is no longer required by God because Jesus fulfilled that requirement.

Concern and pity can obviously be inter-changed depending on the point of view of the person in question. However if someone was stuck in a blizzard, or attacked or whatever then this is something that is not their fault. When someone suffers misfortune in their life in most cases it is not through their own doing.

Sickness and disease in many cases are not the fault of the one suffering the affliction. Concerning pity and concern, when my husband is sick, he expects pity, and all of my attention, from me lol. A big strong man, he nevertheless loves it when I am concerned for his health, make him tea, and lavish him with massages when he's feeling bad. He also appreciates my praying for him, and we both know the power of positivity and faith/hope.

The act of showing concern/pity for someone's soul is linked to the belief that they are living their life in the "wrong" way. - I couldn't accuse someone stuck in a blizzard as having led an immoral/"wrong" life. They would simply be deemed extremely unfortunate to be in the situation they are in. The concern of your friends for your soul in hell stems from their belief that it is your choice to live as a Christian has earned that place in hell. - I.e it's your fault.

Actually, they blame my parents lol. It is true that how one grows up often influences the beliefs of that person. Although many times people (who have the freedom to do so) rebel, it is true that their experiences in childhood greatly influence one's life.

One thing that I really appreciate from my parents is their strictness in regards to not allowing me to get involved in drinking and partying at clubs/bars/parties at peoples' houses. Sadly, I have heard stories of rape from friends who have done so, and I know that my parents' restrictions have been to protect me from the violence of others who don't care for me.

- Of course I could show concern for an alcoholic and thus judge his actions to be "wrong" - but nevertheless wish him well. However, that would be based on his physical well-being in the here and now. I wouldn't hold up my moral code and feel pity for him because he doesn't follow my code and will thus suffer in eternity for ever. I base my concern on his physical/mental health.

The AA groups do this as well, though interestingly, many people who cast aside alcohol do so when convicted of belief in God. I have some friends who are ex-druggies and ex-alcoholics, and it is amazing how their lives changed once they believed in God and how their lives when from meaningless parties to helping other people. I met them in church... one of my mentors is an amazing lady whose husband used to sell drugs. He didn't believe in God until his wife (not my mentor, but his former wife) died of a drug overdose and that's when he began seeking God and seeking help.

Actually, the history of Alcoholics Anonymous has a religious base where prayer (not animal sacrifices!) was a crucial part of the healing from addiction process.

Please see http://www.aa.org/aatimeline/

You may base your concern on their spiritual health (in the afterlife). But physical/mental health can be proven and tested, spiritual well-being in the afterlife cannot be tested, so passing concern over someone's fate in the afterlife might be well-intentioned, but seems (in my view) a waste of time.- Sorry to put it bluntly.

Physical and mental health are indeed important. Actually, many of the commands that God gave to the children of Israel emphasized health. For example, the laws concerning "unclean" meat did help them in that time period. If one wishes to study the physical benefits to many of the specific laws God gave to the children of Israel through Moses, it is a cool study.

One thing that interests me as well concerning Judaism is the idea of hell, which is frankly much less horrible than the interpretations of predominately Gentile Christians. Also, if one reads the teachings of the apostles and disciples of Jesus, they do not emphasize hell.

Peace and God bless you

[Reform]

(Original post by Hypocrism)
Oh no, for a period of time which is representative of exactly 0% of eternity, I live my life a moral person because I can tell right from wrong, but I don't believe in an entity which hasn't given any reason to believe or any evidence for belief in 2000 years, I deserve to spend 100% of time in this horrible place being tortured!

Yea, your god sure is loving.

It goes both ways. I live for life for a period of time which is representative of exactly 0% of eternity as a righteous Muslim and I gain an eternity to paradise.

It's up to you to make the choice. You can try to shift the blame on everything but yourself but the truth is distinct from falsehood.

[Hypocrism]

(Original post by Reform)
It goes both ways. I live for life for a period of time which is representative of exactly 0% of eternity as a righteous Muslim and I gain an eternity to paradise.

It's up to you to make the choice. You can try to shift the blame on everything but yourself but the truth is distinct from falsehood.

Equally unjust. You've done nothing to deserve "paradise" that you wouldn't have done if you weren't religious. A being that really created the world would not be as petty as a human in requiring attention from its creations-it's a complete fabrication to win followers, and therefore power.

[Christianlady]

(Original post by Hypocrism)
Card tricks send you to hell. From the mouth of a christian.

Hello Hypocrism,

Instead of listening to Christians, why not study the Tanak and the Christian Bible?

As far as I know, card tricks aren't even mentioned in them.

By the way, I enjoy playing cards, and enjoy card tricks. I don't see them as bad, but merely as activities that are clever and fun. They don't hurt anybody. However "magic" that does hurt people is wrong. Sad to say, there are some people who want to hurt other people and devise really sad ways of doing so.

Peace and God bless you

[Reform]

(Original post by Hypocrism)
Equally unjust. You've done nothing to deserve "paradise" that you wouldn't have done if you weren't religious. A being that really created the world would not be as petty as a human in requiring attention from its creations-it's a complete fabrication to win followers, and therefore power.

First all of, Allah needs nothing from us. He is the self sufficient.

The whole purpose of creation in Islam is to worship Allah. If someone refuses to recognise Allah, what right do they have to enter paradise? You can be the most moral person but it does you no justice if you do not believe in the creator. Muslims and those who believed in the past are only going to get paradise by the mercy of Allah. Those however who associated partners with Allah or who constantly reject the creator will not be shown this mercy.

If the Prophet (peace be upon him) wanted power, why didn't he take it when he was first offered it by his tribe. Why did they endure such hardships?

Like I said, you can either take the offer and believe or reject the offer and disbelieve.

[MrCarmady]

there is no offer, though. it's like someone telling you about a potential job but there's no building, no listed company, there's just a code of regulations and a lot of people telling you what a great job it is. i wouldn't want to believe in a deity who asks me to suspend reason for reward.

[Carter78]

(Original post by Christianlady)
Hello Carter,

Even if a person doesn't believe in God or deities, it is scientifically observed that prayer can most definitely contribute to healing, since prayer involves faith and positivity. Faith (which is similar to hope) and having a positive outlook do wonders for a person, whereas doubt and despair lead to depression, and negativity crushes the will to live.

The following link provides different case studies where prayer was a variable:

http://health.howstuffworks.com/well...r-healing1.htm

On the contrary, the Templeton Foundation funded (to the tune of $2.3 million) a study into the reported health benefits of Prayer. The results were pretty clear.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/he...pagewanted=all
"Analyzing complications in the 30 days after the operations, the researchers found no differences between those patients who were prayed for and those who were not."

"In another of the study's findings, a significantly higher number of the patients who knew that they were being prayed for — 59 percent — suffered complications, compared with 51 percent of those who were uncertain (if they were being prayed for). The authors left open the possibility that this was a chance finding. But they said that being aware of the strangers' prayers also may have caused some of the patients a kind of performance anxiety."

Sorry for the long quote, you often quote Bible scripture so I hope you don't mind the long quote from me

Perhaps we shouldn't take the results of one experiment as 100% fact, however the scope of the experiment itself should lend weight to its findings...

(Original post by Christianlady)
Again, this point does not take into consideration the documented fact that the children of Israel, under Moses, were commanded by God to slaughter animals in sacrifices. One who understands the history of Christian beliefs would understand that Jesus, a Jewish man who taught in the Temple in Jerusalem (before it was destroyed by the Romans) and taught in the synagogues, was among his people who were offering animal sacrifices.

As I said in my previous post, Denett was not making a point about the Christian reluctance/willingness to commit ritual animal slaughter. He was demonstrating how the faith/belief action in praying/slaughtering an animal are identical. - I.e an action carried out by an individual in order to curry favour with God for a positive outcome.

He wasn't saying that Christians should/shouldn't slaughter animals. He was using the slaughter of animals as an extreme metaphor for a type of religious practice that an individual could undertake in order to bring about a positive outcome. - An act that much like prayer, is not based on rationality/scientific evidence.

(Original post by Christianlady)
His point shows as well his not understanding of the foundations of Christian beliefs, which is Judaism. It is indeed important for anyone to think about why they pray (most people who pray for others do so because they care for someone) but killing an innocent animal is much different than praying asking God or deities for healing for a person one cares about, or do you think they are the same?

There is a marked similarity between praying and ritual sacrifice, let me explain;

Christians who believe that a wafer and wine literally turn into the body and blood of Jesus Christ are expressing an irrational belief. In the same way that Islamic suicide bombers express the irrational belief that they will be rewarded with 72 virgins in Heaven for their actions.

Both beliefs are based on irrational faith. I will state categorically here...these two actions have wildly different behavioural outcomes, but both share the common trait of faith. This line of thought can be applied to prayer and ritual sacrifice as well. Both are two very different actions, but are both irrational. (This is the point Denett was making).

(Original post by Christianlady)
Sickness and disease in many cases are not the fault of the one suffering the affliction. Concerning pity and concern, when my husband is sick, he expects pity, and all of my attention, from me lol. A big strong man, he nevertheless loves it when I am concerned for his health, make him tea, and lavish him with massages when he's feeling bad. He also appreciates my praying for him, and we both know the power of positivity and faith/hope.

Do not underestimate the power of Man Flu!

(Original post by Christianlady)
Actually, they blame my parents lol. It is true that how one grows up often influences the beliefs of that person. Although many times people (who have the freedom to do so) rebel, it is true that their experiences in childhood greatly influence one's life.

No one should be blamed for someone's possible/imagined/unsubstantiated well-being in the afterlife!

(Original post by Christianlady)
One thing that I really appreciate from my parents is their strictness in regards to not allowing me to get involved in drinking and partying at clubs/bars/parties at peoples' houses. Sadly, I have heard stories of rape from friends who have done so, and I know that my parents' restrictions have been to protect me from the violence of others who don't care for me.

Sounds like your parents did a great job, but then there is nothing wrong per se' with drinking and partying...as long as these things are carried out safely and maturely.

(Original post by Christianlady)
The AA groups do this as well, though interestingly, many people who cast aside alcohol do so when convicted of belief in God. I have some friends who are ex-druggies and ex-alcoholics, and it is amazing how their lives changed once they believed in God and how their lives when from meaningless parties to helping other people. I met them in church... one of my mentors is an amazing lady whose husband used to sell drugs. He didn't believe in God until his wife (not my mentor, but his former wife) died of a drug overdose and that's when he began seeking God and seeking help.

An alcoholic may find hope through Christianity, but this would be coincidental and would not lend any weight to the claims of Christianity. You must know that alcoholics are prescribed many drug treatments (to battle the associated depression). Mirtazapine and citalopram are standard treatment for alcoholics and are designed to bolster serotonin levels (lowered through excessive drinking). These drugs aim to "balance out" the individual and reduce depression/suicidal tendencies.

Also, it is the standard cause for alcoholics to have therapy, usually behavioural therapy that lasts for at least 6 months - although alcoholics will tend to attend AA meetings for many years.

A belief in God may or may not help an individual beat alcohol. But these other factors will be much more crucial to their success, - I have yet to meet an alcoholic who beat their addiction just through religion. Either way, a desperate need for hope does not strengthen the supernatural claims of Christianity i.e God created the Universe, Jesus performed miracles etc etc.

Thank you for your AA link..

[Hypocrism]

(Original post by Reform)
First all of, Allah needs nothing from us. He is the self sufficient.

The whole purpose of creation in Islam is to worship Allah. If someone refuses to recognise Allah, what right do they have to enter paradise? You can be the most moral person but it does you no justice if you do not believe in the creator. Muslims and those who believed in the past are only going to get paradise by the mercy of Allah. Those however who associated partners with Allah or who constantly reject the creator will not be shown this mercy.

If the Prophet (peace be upon him) wanted power, why didn't he take it when he was first offered it by his tribe. Why did they endure such hardships?

Like I said, you can either take the offer and believe or reject the offer and disbelieve.

You forgot a noun.

Clearly Allah is not self-sufficient. Otherwise why would he feel lonely enough to create the universe to get some prayers? It's like a crazy cat lady who collects cats so she has something to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2-15mYWpmA

That's "Allah" from my perspective.

[Christianlady]

(Original post by Carter78)
On the contrary, the Templeton Foundation funded (to the tune of $2.3 million) a study into the reported health benefits of Prayer. The results were pretty clear.


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/he...pagewanted=all
"Analyzing complications in the 30 days after the operations, the researchers found no differences between those patients who were prayed for and those who were not."

"In another of the study's findings, a significantly higher number of the patients who knew that they were being prayed for — 59 percent — suffered complications, compared with 51 percent of those who were uncertain (if they were being prayed for). The authors left open the possibility that this was a chance finding. But they said that being aware of the strangers' prayers also may have caused some of the patients a kind of performance anxiety."

Hello Carter,

In the article, it also says, (and I boldened some):

"The question has been a contentious one among researchers. Proponents have argued that prayer is perhaps the most deeply human response to disease, and that it may relieve suffering by some mechanism that is not yet understood. Skeptics have contended that studying prayer is a waste of money and that it presupposes supernatural intervention, putting it by definition beyond the reach of science.

At least 10 studies of the effects of prayer have been carried out in the last six years, with mixed results. The new study was intended to overcome flaws in the earlier investigations. The report was scheduled to appear in The American Heart Journal next week, but the journal's publisher released it online yesterday.

In a hurriedly convened news conference, the study's authors, led by Dr. Herbert Benson, a cardiologist and director of the Mind/Body Medical Institute near Boston, said that the findings were not the last word on the effects of so-called intercessory prayer. But the results, they said, raised questions about how and whether patients should be told that prayers were being offered for them."

Sorry for the long quote, you often quote Bible scripture so I hope you don't mind the long quote from me

Oh don't be sorry at all!!! I love to read and write, and I don't consider either one to be a waste of time. I am enjoying this discussion with you. Thanks for your kindness and tolerance.

Perhaps we shouldn't take the results of one experiment as 100% fact, however the scope of the experiment itself should lend weight to its findings...

Fair enough

As I said in my previous post, Denett was not making a point about the Christian reluctance/willingness to commit ritual animal slaughter. He was demonstrating how the faith/belief action in praying/slaughtering an animal are identical. - I.e an action carried out by an individual in order to curry favour with God for a positive outcome.

If animals were sacrificed under the Law of Moses as a healing method, I would agree with you. However, praying for someone's healing is not the same thing as killing an innocent animal in order to obey the Law that had nothing to do with healing anybody. i hope you understand my stance on this, even if you do think that "praying/slaughtering an animal are identical". For example, when God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac (Genesis 22), it wasn't in order to heal anybody. It was a test, which is one I frankly might not pass. If God told me to kill my son, you can bet I'd say no way. I don't think I have the amount of faith that Abraham did to trust in God in spite of such a horrendous order. However thank God!!! God stopped Abraham from killing Isaac and provided a ram to kill (which as far as I know, the ram never did anything wrong to be killed). Now, it is possible that Abraham thought that God was going to intervene or that God was going to raise Isaac from the dead, but regardless, the order to kill didn't have anything to do with healing other people.

He wasn't saying that Christians should/shouldn't slaughter animals. He was using the slaughter of animals as an extreme metaphor for a type of religious practice that an individual could undertake in order to bring about a positive outcome. - An act that much like prayer, is not based on rationality/scientific evidence.

Hmm. I still think he did not understand either Judaism or Christianity very well to make such a comment, though it was indeed funny. If I had been there offering to pray for him, I would have laughed. I wouldn't get into a debate about it with him though, because when someone is sick, that's not a good time to argue, I don't think.

There is a marked similarity between praying and ritual sacrifice, let me explain;

Well, the only similarities I see between them is the following:

1. Faith: Belief that the idea is from God for people to do to please Him

However again, I hope you understand about my stance concerning the marked differences between praying for the welfare of another living being (and I pray for animals, which probably doesn't surprise you by now) verses killing them. I am extremely against killing most animals, which yeah I am a hypocrite in that I eat chicken and fish. Someday I might become vegetarian though... my husband loves to eat meat however which makes that hard.

Christians who believe that a wafer and wine literally turn into the body and blood of Jesus Christ are expressing an irrational belief.

For Atheists, even the belief in a Supreme Being (that's not human) is considered irrational, but yes, I do believe that the bread without yeast and the wine do not literally turn into the body and blood of Jesus! The Lord's Supper is symbolic, in order to remember what Jesus did once for all, not to physically heal sicknesses, but to be the sacrifice that fulfills and completes any command for innocent blood being shed so that the guilty person is not condemned.

In the same way that Islamic suicide bombers express the irrational belief that they will be rewarded with 72 virgins in Heaven for their actions.

Ironically, this flies in the face of Jesus' teaching Matthew 22:29-32) concerning that there will be no marriage at the Resurrection, which rules out sex because in Judaism, sex outside of marriage is a no-no.

That is why, as a Christian, I am very happily enjoying marriage (and all its benefits lol) here on earth!!!

Both beliefs are based on irrational faith. I will state categorically here...these two actions have wildly different behavioural outcomes, but both share the common trait of faith. This line of thought can be applied to prayer and ritual sacrifice as well. Both are two very different actions, but are both irrational. (This is the point Denett was making).

Again, to Atheists, any faith in God is irrational so... though I enjoy explaining and defending what i believe, I know that an Atheist won't accept anything I consider to be evidence to God, and that is fine. That's their business, and we can agree to disagree, obviously. It is good that those who told them they prayed for him did not let his ideas concerning God prevent them from caring for him. It is wonderful when people of all views can agree to disagree and not insult or persecute those who believe differently, or look different, or live differently than them.

Praying for someone doesn't hurt them. Physical violence does, so thankfully, prayer has nothing to do with acts of violence, including killing an innocent animal, ahem.

Do not underestimate the power of Man Flu!

Lol no kidding!!!

No one should be blamed for someone's possible/imagined/unsubstantiated well-being in the afterlife!



Sounds like your parents did a great job, but then there is nothing wrong per se' with drinking and partying...as long as these things are carried out safely and maturely.

I agree that it is not wrong to drink alcohol when done "safely and maturely" with consideration for others. Sad to say, so many people got hurt every year by drunk drivers, so I do wish that more people would be more careful in their freedom of drinking alcohol.

An alcoholic may find hope through Christianity, but this would be coincidental and would not lend any weight to the claims of Christianity. You must know that alcoholics are prescribed many drug treatments (to battle the associated depression). Mirtazapine and citalopram are standard treatment for alcoholics and are designed to bolster serotonin levels (lowered through excessive drinking). These drugs aim to "balance out" the individual and reduce depression/suicidal tendencies.

Many Christian beliefs also "balance out" many individuals and "reduce depression/suicidal tendencies" with the added benefit of not taking drugs! Yoga, I understand, also does this for people, though some yoga positions I personally cannot consider without cringing inside.

Also, it is the standard cause for alcoholics to have therapy, usually behavioural therapy that lasts for at least 6 months - although alcoholics will tend to attend AA meetings for many years.

Yep. Therapy helps a lot, and for many people, therapy which includes belief in God does wonders.

A belief in God may or may not help an individual beat alcohol.

True, but for many people, it helps.

But these other factors will be much more crucial to their success, - I have yet to meet an alcoholic who beat their addiction just through religion. Either way, a desperate need for hope does not strengthen the supernatural claims of Christianity i.e God created the Universe, Jesus performed miracles etc etc.

Thank you for your AA link..

My friends credit God for their freedom from addiction, but they have been a part of the AA group for years at the church I used to attend before moving. They are actually "stronger" in their belief than many Christians who have not dealt with striving against a drug/alcohol addiction. It seems that their newfound belief in God, coupled with emotional support from Christian friends, does a lot to help, as well as positivity and faith/hope (which are crucial elements for prayer)

No problem. Thanks for the interesting discussion. I have to go but again, I appreciate your kindness and tolerance, though you don't agree with me.

Peace and God bless you

[Reform]

(Original post by Hypocrism)
You forgot a noun.

Clearly Allah is not self-sufficient. Otherwise why would he feel lonely enough to create the universe to get some prayers? It's like a crazy cat lady who collects cats so she has something to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2-15mYWpmA

That's "Allah" from my perspective.

Allah is being worshipped constantly by the angels and every living thing on this planet except for humans and jinn.

Your worship or lack of has no effect on Allah and it is solely for your benefit once you die.

You can hide behind all your justifications as to why you cant/wont believe but once you die, it's over. If you revert, it's to better yourself and to gain paradise. If you don't, I'm just an individual warning you that your abode will be the hell fire.

Up to you, son.

[Carter78]

(Original post by Christianlady)
Hello Carter,

In the article, it also says, (and I boldened some):

At least 10 studies of the effects of prayer have been carried out in the last six years, with mixed results. The new study was intended to overcome flaws in the earlier investigations.

I completely agree that the results are mixed. This however cannot be taken as resounding evidence for prayer.

(Original post by Christianlady)
In a hurriedly convened news conference, the study's authors, led by Dr. Herbert Benson, a cardiologist and director of the Mind/Body Medical Institute near Boston, said that the findings were not the last word on the effects of so-called intercessory prayer. But the results, they said, raised questions about how and whether patients should be told that prayers were being offered for them."

The experiment was undertaken by the Templeton Foundation - a foundation that exists to explore the extent of spirituality/faith within science. (I've simnplified their message of course ) but my point is that they would be expected to put a positive spin on the results of this test.

(Original post by Christianlady)
Oh don't be sorry at all!!! I love to read and write, and I don't consider either one to be a waste of time. I am enjoying this discussion with you. Thanks for your kindness and tolerance.

And I with you, you're educating me thoroughly on Christian theology

(Original post by Christianlady)
If animals were sacrificed under the Law of Moses as a healing method, I would agree with you. However, praying for someone's healing is not the same thing as killing an innocent animal in order to obey the Law that had nothing to do with healing anybody. i hope you understand my stance on this, even if you do think that "praying/slaughtering an animal are identical". For example, when God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac (Genesis 22), it wasn't in order to heal anybody. It was a test, which is one I frankly might not pass. If God told me to kill my son, you can bet I'd say no way. I don't think I have the amount of faith that Abraham did to trust in God in spite of such a horrendous order. However thank God!!! God stopped Abraham from killing Isaac and provided a ram to kill (which as far as I know, the ram never did anything wrong to be killed). Now, it is possible that Abraham thought that God was going to intervene or that God was going to raise Isaac from the dead, but regardless, the order to kill didn't have anything to do with healing other people.

I'm sorry, but I am one of those Atheists who find the story of Abraham and Isaac morally abhorrent. What loving God would ever test a parent like that? And what loving parent would ever put their own Son through that procedure? I'm not surprised that you "wouldn't pass that test", I'm glad you wouldn't!

However I don't find any redeeming qualities in that story for God OR Abraham. I know you weren't arguing for this story, you were simply pointing out that presence of animal sacrifice in the story. However I find the story to be absolutely barmy.

(Original post by Christianlady)
Hmm. I still think he did not understand either Judaism or Christianity very well to make such a comment, though it was indeed funny. If I had been there offering to pray for him, I would have laughed. I wouldn't get into a debate about it with him though, because when someone is sick, that's not a good time to argue, I don't think.

I can see your point about being subtle/gentle around someone when they have frailties.
A friend of my Mother's was telling me one day how he had attributed his survival from Pancreatic Cancer to God and prayer. After talking for 20 mins about his faith and recovery, he then asked me which Church I went to. I told him I was an Atheist, but that it was a personal choice and was in no way intended as a reflection on his beliefs. He didn't take it well and thought it was a personal attack on him....

(Original post by Christianlady)
Well, the only similarities I see between them is the following:

1. Faith: Belief that the idea is from God for people to do to please Him

However again, I hope you understand about my stance concerning the marked differences between praying for the welfare of another living being (and I pray for animals, which probably doesn't surprise you by now) verses killing them. I am extremely against killing most animals, which yeah I am a hypocrite in that I eat chicken and fish. Someday I might become vegetarian though... my husband loves to eat meat however which makes that hard.


For Atheists, even the belief in a Supreme Being (that's not human) is considered irrational, but yes, I do believe that the bread without yeast and the wine do not literally turn into the body and blood of Jesus! The Lord's Supper is symbolic, in order to remember what Jesus did once for all, not to physically heal sicknesses, but to be the sacrifice that fulfills and completes any command for innocent blood being shed so that the guilty person is not condemned.

Correct me if I'm wrong (I love to be educated ) don't Catholics take the bread and wine to be a literal representation of Jesus's body and blood? Transubstantiation and all that?

- You might not be a Catholic of course!

Good luck on the giving up meat. Eating meat is something that we as gentle human beings cannot ethically defend. There's a short but sweet Sam Harris video which reflects my view: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLFnJ8pWh8g

(Original post by Christianlady)
Again, to Atheists, any faith in God is irrational so... though I enjoy explaining and defending what i believe, I know that an Atheist won't accept anything I consider to be evidence to God, and that is fine. That's their business, and we can agree to disagree, obviously. It is good that those who told them they prayed for him did not let his ideas concerning God prevent them from caring for him. It is wonderful when people of all views can agree to disagree and not insult or persecute those who believe differently, or look different, or live differently than them.

Praying for someone doesn't hurt them. Physical violence does, so thankfully, prayer has nothing to do with acts of violence, including killing an innocent animal, ahem.

As I said I can see the remarkably different behavioral outcomes between Prayer and animal sacrifice. Prayer is obviously harmless and full of good intent! My fear (as an Atheist) is that irrationality and faith are fertile breeding grounds for unethical actions (such as animal sacrifice/terrorism/opposition to gay marriage).

The reason I think that blind faith can be dangerous is because there are plenty of religious folk who are proud of their "faith".... i.e they are not troubled by the lack of evidence for their beliefs. This is absolutely fine when constricted to prayer, helping those in need etc.

But I see this base indifference to fact/rationality reflected in those religious folk who will carry out bad/immoral deeds once again on blind faith. Whether faith is dangerous or not depends entirely on the individual, however I don't just see terrorists as bad people (which they obviously are), I also see them as individuals who are just "dangerously faithful". They are "faith-heads", and are blind to rationality.

As an Atheist I am not reassured by blind faith, whether it is expressed through prayer, or opposition to abortion, or whatever.

When I call faith irrational I don't mean it as an insult by the way, I mean it simply as holding a religious belief that is not substantiated by evidence. - And I don't just mean Bible passages.

(Original post by Christianlady)
Many Christian beliefs also "balance out" many individuals and "reduce depression/suicidal tendencies" with the added benefit of not taking drugs! Yoga, I understand, also does this for people, though some yoga positions I personally cannot consider without cringing inside.

Yep. Therapy helps a lot, and for many people, therapy which includes belief in God does wonders.

If a person finds their solace through Christ, then the best of luck to them. Although as I said this doesn't make the core supernatural claims of Christianity true.

(Original post by Christianlady)
My friends credit God for their freedom from addiction, but they have been a part of the AA group for years at the church I used to attend before moving. They are actually "stronger" in their belief than many Christians who have not dealt with striving against a drug/alcohol addiction. It seems that their newfound belief in God, coupled with emotional support from Christian friends, does a lot to help, as well as positivity and faith/hope (which are crucial elements for prayer)

I can understand that. I've always found people who profess Christian beliefs simply because they had these views impressed upon them as Children to be a little "fake" in their faith. I agree with you whole-heartily that faith that comes from being "put to the test" is certainly "stronger" or more believable than faith handed down from generation to generation.

[Christianlady]

(Original post by Carter78)
I completely agree that the results are mixed. This however cannot be taken as resounding evidence for prayer.

Hello Carter,

Good point. Neither then, can it be taken as a resounding evidence against prayer.

The experiment was undertaken by the Templeton Foundation - a foundation that exists to explore the extent of spirituality/faith within science. (I've simnplified their message of course ) but my point is that they would be expected to put a positive spin on the results of this test.

Were all involved Theists? Sadly, there is a lack of objectivity if one is either Theist or Atheist. Agnostics tend to be more objective, understandably.

And I with you, you're educating me thoroughly on Christian theology

Thank you I appreciate your willingness to get to know what Christians believe even though you don't believe the same.

I'm sorry, but I am one of those Atheists who find the story of Abraham and Isaac morally abhorrent. What loving God would ever test a parent like that? And what loving parent would ever put their own Son through that procedure? I'm not surprised that you "wouldn't pass that test", I'm glad you wouldn't!

However I don't find any redeeming qualities in that story for God OR Abraham. I know you weren't arguing for this story, you were simply pointing out that presence of animal sacrifice in the story. However I find the story to be absolutely barmy.

I understand. However, God stopped Abraham from killing Isaac, which is great. In other beliefs, people used to sacrifice human beings.

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob did not require that however, though He did require animals sacrifices (the first one seems to have been killed by God Himself, when He clothed Adam and Eve with skins (Genesis 3:21). This has always saddened me, because I love animals.

Christians believe that the test that God gave to Abraham is a prophecy concerning Jesus. The reasons we believe that are the following:

1. We believe Jesus is the Son of God, which fulfills the Messianic prophecy concerning the offspring of King David (2 Samuel 7, 1 Chronicles 17, Psalm 2, Psalm 89) and God's test of Abraham was similar to what God would do for humankind, in allowing his "Son" to die.

2. Abraham, when questioned by his son Isaac, said that, "“God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” (in Genesis 22:8). Christians believe that this has double meaning: meaning for that point in time when God provided a ram for the sacrifice (Genesis 22:13) and meaning concerning Jesus, who is called by John the Baptist as the "Lamb of God" (John 1:29).

Jesus, the Lamb of God, clearly commands to love even one's enemies (Matthew 5:44). Killing is not loving, so if one uses logic, one can come to the conclusion that Christians are not to kill anyone. Sadly, there are many who have and do, but it is obvious they did not take Jesus' command to love one's enemies seriously.

I can see your point about being subtle/gentle around someone when they have frailties.
A friend of my Mother's was telling me one day how he had attributed his survival from Pancreatic Cancer to God and prayer. After talking for 20 mins about his faith and recovery, he then asked me which Church I went to. I told him I was an Atheist, but that it was a personal choice and was in no way intended as a reflection on his beliefs. He didn't take it well and thought it was a personal attack on him....

Oh, well I am glad that he is recovering from cancer! It is sad when people who believe differently consider other points of view to be an attack. People are diverse, and so of course there's going to be different points of view on everything!

Correct me if I'm wrong (I love to be educated ) don't Catholics take the bread and wine to be a literal representation of Jesus's body and blood? Transubstantiation and all that?

Yes, but Jesus says that his talking about his body being food and his blood being drink is spiritual, not actual physical!

John 6 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...06&version=NIV
(I boldened some.)

"52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
Many Disciples Desert Jesus

60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[Or are Spirit; or are spirit] and life."

Jesus was using food and drink to be a metaphor to spiritual living!

During his last Passover with his apostles, Jesus told them to "... do this in remembrance of me.” (in Luke 22:19). The bread without yeast and the wine being his body and blood are metaphors.
Jesus was in no way teaching cannibalism, and nobody ate Jesus' actual body!

- You might not be a Catholic of course!

Nope But I have friends who are Catholics and consider Catholics to be brothers and sisters in Christ.

Good luck on the giving up meat. Eating meat is something that we as gentle human beings cannot ethically defend. There's a short but sweet Sam Harris video which reflects my view: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLFnJ8pWh8g

Thanks for the link. I will watch it after submitting this reply.

As I said I can see the remarkably different behavioral outcomes between Prayer and animal sacrifice. Prayer is obviously harmless and full of good intent! My fear (as an Atheist) is that irrationality and faith are fertile breeding grounds for unethical actions (such as animal sacrifice/terrorism/opposition to gay marriage).

Well, some fears Atheists have can be put to rest, seeing as how Christians do not sacrifice animals. If Christians had obeyed Jesus' very clear command to love others, including one's enemies, the Catholics and the Protestants would not have ever started killing each other or "heretics". Jesus did not at all command killing people who did not believe in him. Actually, when people stopped believing in him, he just focused on the belief of his faithful followers.

John 6 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...06&version=NIV
(I boldened some.)

"66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.

68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.” "

When studying the lives of the apostles who knew Jesus and walked and talked with him, it is obvious that they didn't kill or hurt those who didn't believe their message. I don't know what happened (maybe it is just simply ignorance) that led to "Christians" killing others. That is disobedience to one of the most powerful commands ever... to love one's enemies.

Concerning homosexuality and gay marriage, basically, people are free to do whatever they want and believe whatever they want. God is the Judge, not people. Now, Jesus, a Jewish man, quoted extensively from the Tanakh and considered the Tanakh to be the Scriptures. In the Tanakh, homosexuality, as well as bestiality, adultery, and incest, were strict no-nos when God gave the Law to Moses for the children of Israel. Although Jesus did not mention homosexuality, he did teach heterosexual purity to the men, saying that even lusting after a woman in one's heart = adultery (and in the Tanakh, adultery is one of the many sexual no-nos).

So, Christians are to love everyone and obey God's other commandments, including purity. If other people don't want to or think they can't, that's between them and God. Christians shouldn't hate or despise either heterosexuals engaged in adultery or incest, nor should we hate homosexuals. Rather, love is required, no matter what.

The reason I think that blind faith can be dangerous is because there are plenty of religious folk who are proud of their "faith".... i.e they are not troubled by the lack of evidence for their beliefs. This is absolutely fine when constricted to prayer, helping those in need etc.

But I see this base indifference to fact/rationality reflected in those religious folk who will carry out bad/immoral deeds once again on blind faith. Whether faith is dangerous or not depends entirely on the individual, however I don't just see terrorists as bad people (which they obviously are), I also see them as individuals who are just "dangerously faithful". They are "faith-heads", and are blind to rationality.

Understood. I think that's why faith in who is so important. The main reason I am a Christian is because I love Jesus. Jesus is worthy of trust, in my opinion, because he did not teach violence. He taught love, which is difficult, but makes the world a better place!!! If all people who called/call/will call themselves Christians truly loved others, then so much would have been different. For example, if the Christians in Europe had not persecuted Jewish people, but instead loved like Jesus commanded for his followers to do to everybody, that would have stopped horrible persecutions many times over... it is even possible the Holocaust would not have happened, since Christians in Germany would not have stupidly followed a hater, but rather actively followed Jesus and his command to love!

As an Atheist I am not reassured by blind faith, whether it is expressed through prayer, or opposition to abortion, or whatever.

When I call faith irrational I don't mean it as an insult by the way, I mean it simply as holding a religious belief that is not substantiated by evidence. - And I don't just mean Bible passages.

Many though not all people who hold a religious believe do consider their own personal experiences to be evidence. For example, when a couple is in love, they consider their feelings and time together to be evidence that they love each other. For people who believe in God and have feelings for Him and believe that God is closer than a family member or friend, that is considered by them to be evidence. I am one who believes my personal experiences are evidence.

If a person finds their solace through Christ, then the best of luck to them. Although as I said this doesn't make the core supernatural claims of Christianity true.

There are indeed people in every belief who find solace in their belief. I understand your point.

I can understand that. I've always found people who profess Christian beliefs simply because they had these views impressed upon them as Children to be a little "fake" in their faith. I agree with you whole-heartily that faith that comes from being "put to the test" is certainly "stronger" or more believable than faith handed down from generation to generation.

Agreed. One of my role models is Corrie ten Boom, who even though she did not struggle with an addiction (as far as I know) she was put through a terrible trial... she had been rescuing Jewish people in Holland along with all her family. Her beloved father died in jail, and she and her sister languished in a concentration camp until her sister died. Later, Corrie ten Boom was freed. She told people about God's love and forgiveness through Jesus, and even helped German people recover from the war. It was hard for her to forgive those who hurt her family, but she did. Her faith is most definitely more believable than those who just merely live life how they want and attend church once a week.

Peace and God bless you

[imasupercoolgeek]

(Original post by ChampEon)
If you're a true Muslim or Christian then you shouldn't answer yes or no because you should realise that ONLY GOD KNOWS AND DECIDES WHO GOES TO HEAVEN.

Not really, the Bible tells me to be sure of my salvation. Jesus saved me and has promised me eternity with Him and I am sure of that.


This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App

[imasupercoolgeek]

To answer the OP's question, no an individual who doesn't believe in God cannot enter heaven.

Also, no one is good apart from God.

You may have lied
You may have stolen
You may have used God's name in vain
You may have coveted

You are not good. "Good" doesn't get you in heaven, "perfection" does and that is only found in Christ. Jesus said "I am the way" He is the ONLY WAY.


This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App

[imasupercoolgeek]

(Original post by mc1000)
As an intelligent Christian (no jokes about the oxymoron please), I believe there are plenty of non-believers who do get into heaven.

The Bible makes it explicity clear that God's final judgement will be just.

For God's judgement to be just, that means that he has to consider each and every person on a case-by-case basis. It also means that he has to consider every aspect of each and every person's life.

In order for the judgement to be just, he has to give considerably more leeway to the people who were more disadvantaged in life - such as those who were brought up in broken homes, had it ingrained into their malleable minds from a young age that God is a bastard, and ended up addicted to heroin. In addition to this, if they don't have the intelligence to consider a contrasting point of view, this will also be taken into account on judgement day. How can an atheist ever become a Christian if they don't understand the contrasting arguments?

Inevitably, most of these people will go through life rejecting Christianity in spite of what they read - solely as a result of the bad hand they've been dealt - and this will sympathetically be taken into account by God.

I believe the same applies to a Muslim (purely for the sake of argument) who has been brought up strictly reading the Quran and is disowned for even considering reading the Bible. How can this person have the same chance of being a Christian as someone who's brought up in a Christian household?! And I think that saying you HAVE to be a Christian to get into heaven is therefore a big flaw in what most Christians seem to believe.

In contrast, a lot more will be expected of the life of a devout christian who was brought up in a lovely middle-class family, and was taken along to church every week as a child. He stayed in the right crowd throughout his life, and lead a thoroughly moral life. Maybe he's intelligent and has the ability to dissect and critically analyse every Bible verse, and maybe he's not; either way, it will therefore be expected, on Judgement Day, that this guy is a Christian - and if he is not, then he isn't accepted into heaven.

Hell, even an intelligent atheist who knows the Bible inside out could feasibly get into heaven; it all depends on his/her background and many other factors. Even the specific way in which his/her mind interprets the contrasting evidence (e.g. people with more scientific brains are far more likely to reject Christianity - so although it would superfically seem to disadvantage them (hypothetically speaking), its apparent disadvantage is taken into account to make it fair against someone with a way of thinking that automatically concludes that Christianity is the correct way.)

Finally, what about a baby who dies? Or the members of an uncontacted tribe in the Amazon Rainforest? Neither of these have heard of Jesus.

It's all based on what you do with what you've been given; and God judges each person individually and completely equally. There's no discrimination of those who have been disadvantaged.


Incidentally, I also believe that Hell is just a term for non-existence. Eternal torture is certainly not in keeping with a just punishment.

No. I'm afraid not. If I may correct you, Book of Romans says we have seen His work in creation so MEN ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE. Jesus is the only way. He didn't say "I am the only way.. Apart from if you were raised in a bad home".

And in relation to children, they will go heaven if they dont know the difference between good and bad. If they do know they must pick.


This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App

[mc1000]

(Original post by imasupercoolgeek)
No. I'm afraid not. If I may correct you, Book of Romans says we have seen His work in creation so MEN ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE. Jesus is the only way. He didn't say "I am the only way.. Apart from if you were raised in a bad home".

Yeah, because that's really just, isn't it. Really in keeping with what the Bible says about God's final judgement being absolutely fair. /sarcasm.

What's the specific verse?

[joey_richardson]

(Original post by mc1000)
Yeah, because that's really just, isn't it. Really in keeping with what the Bible says about God's final judgement being absolutely fair. /sarcasm.

What's the specific verse?

Romans 1:20

[mc1000]

(Original post by joey_richardson)
Romans 1:20

Perhaps you could also explain to me how it's a fair judgement? Don't just say 'free will'; atheists are about 5 steps ahead of you on that one, and in any case it wouldn't be answering the question.