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Can non-believers get into heaven?

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    (Original post by BabyfacedDom)
    Sorry if this is a standard thread. Basically i 100% dismiss that there is a god dislike religion a lot. However had a discussion this evening about religion etc which got me thinking.

    If heaven and hell did exist and god was waiting for me when i died would the fact that i didn't worship him prevent me from getting into heaven?

    I think i am a good person kind considerate helpful don't steal murder or any other crimes. I do that cos of my own moral compass not cos a book told me to. Surely i would be allowed in?

    Also if i was allowed in surely this makes worshipping god pointless? and religious people have effectively wasted their sunday mornings?
    As an intelligent Christian (no jokes about the oxymoron please), I believe there are plenty of non-believers who do get into heaven.

    The Bible makes it explicity clear that God's final judgement will be just.

    For God's judgement to be just, that means that he has to consider each and every person on a case-by-case basis. It also means that he has to consider every aspect of each and every person's life.

    In order for the judgement to be just, he has to give considerably more leeway to the people who were more disadvantaged in life - such as those who were brought up in broken homes, had it ingrained into their malleable minds from a young age that God is a bastard, and ended up addicted to heroin. In addition to this, if they don't have the intelligence to consider a contrasting point of view, this will also be taken into account on judgement day. How can an atheist ever become a Christian if they don't understand the contrasting arguments?

    Inevitably, most of these people will go through life rejecting Christianity in spite of what they read - solely as a result of the bad hand they've been dealt - and this will sympathetically be taken into account by God.

    I believe the same applies to a Muslim (purely for the sake of argument) who has been brought up strictly reading the Quran and is disowned for even considering reading the Bible. How can this person have the same chance of being a Christian as someone who's brought up in a Christian household?! And I think that saying you HAVE to be a Christian to get into heaven is therefore a big flaw in what most Christians seem to believe.

    In contrast, a lot more will be expected of the life of a devout christian who was brought up in a lovely middle-class family, and was taken along to church every week as a child. He stayed in the right crowd throughout his life, and lead a thoroughly moral life. Maybe he's intelligent and has the ability to dissect and critically analyse every Bible verse, and maybe he's not; either way, it will therefore be expected, on Judgement Day, that this guy is a Christian - and if he is not, then he isn't accepted into heaven.

    Hell, even an intelligent atheist who knows the Bible inside out could feasibly get into heaven; it all depends on his/her background and many other factors. Even the specific way in which his/her mind interprets the contrasting evidence (e.g. people with more scientific brains are far more likely to reject Christianity - so although it would superfically seem to disadvantage them (hypothetically speaking), its apparent disadvantage is taken into account to make it fair against someone with a way of thinking that automatically concludes that Christianity is the correct way.)

    Finally, what about a baby who dies? Or the members of an uncontacted tribe in the Amazon Rainforest? Neither of these have heard of Jesus.

    It's all based on what you do with what you've been given; and God judges each person individually and completely equally. There's no discrimination of those who have been disadvantaged.


    Incidentally, I also believe that Hell is just a term for non-existence. Eternal torture is certainly not in keeping with a just punishment.
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    (Original post by BabyfacedDom)
    Sorry if this is a standard thread. Basically i 100% dismiss that there is a god dislike religion a lot. However had a discussion this evening about religion etc which got me thinking.

    If heaven and hell did exist and god was waiting for me when i died would the fact that i didn't worship him prevent me from getting into heaven?

    I think i am a good person kind considerate helpful don't steal murder or any other crimes. I do that cos of my own moral compass not cos a book told me to. Surely i would be allowed in?

    Also if i was allowed in surely this makes worshipping god pointless? and religious people have effectively wasted their sunday mornings?
    I am religious and I am a good person (or try to be) because of my own moral compass. It's not like without my religion I would be a murderer. Only, a the bible help's guide me when I don't know what to do.

    In terms of your question, no. Non believers go to hell according to the bible.
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    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    No.

    And I don't think the worshiping part is what matters most here, I think it's the acknowledgment of your Creator that's more important, which can define a person's potential exit into hell or heaven.

    You also need to try and look at it from the Divines perspective (obviously we can never emulate how it actually is). You create humans, you give them substance, guidance, protection - you send them messengers with clear messages of their existence - and the humans decide they are mad men and this is all the work of nature and physical laws.

    I can personally see the issue here.
    God is all knowing. Therefore why would he send us messengers who he knew we'd think are mad men (oh and how can we prove they were sent by god... plenty of people say they are sent by god but plenty of people in the world are also mental...). Why didn't he just come to earth himself or write it in the stars.

    If god want's acknowledgement and respect, why did he make atheists? I am agnostic so I am open to the concept of a god. However the idea that if there is a creator, that he/she is standing there pissed off that we are not acknowledging them is ludicrous. If you could make the universe you wouldn't care that a few animals don't believe in you, and if you did care so much, you would simply spell it out clearly rather than "messenger" etc.
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    No, in order to get into Heaven you have to believe in God and Jesus, that God sent his only son down to die on the cos for our sins in Deuteronomy 30:12 the Bible says
    It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”
    Jesus also says that if you deny him he will deny you infront of His father.
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    (Original post by mc1000)
    Incidentally, I also believe that Hell is just a term for non-existence. Eternal torture is certainly not in keeping with a just punishment.
    The rest of your post is very reasonable, and also works perfectly in connection with this, because some people believe that Hell is indeed non-existence (or existence on Earth, like in the case of Rapture), while believing that only believers can go to heaven, in which case you get the conundrum of what happens if a moral couple in love both die and one of them was an unbeliever - if they don't go to heaven as well, that's punishing the believer, after all, which would be unjust by any standards.
    If more Christians were like you, there wouldn't be as much resentment towards Christianity. Unfortunately, however, you still indirectly legitimise the psychos by believing in the same god as them, if only in name and not in nature.
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    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    No.

    And I don't think the worshiping part is what matters most here, I think it's the acknowledgment of your Creator that's more important, which can define a person's potential exit into hell or heaven.

    You also need to try and look at it from the Divines perspective (obviously we can never emulate how it actually is). You create humans, you give them substance, guidance, protection - you send them messengers with clear messages of their existence - and the humans decide they are mad men and this is all the work of nature and physical laws.

    I can personally see the issue here.
    I don't. Why would an omnipotent being, so far advanvanced in comparison to us as to be indescribable, really care if we believe in it or not? The sort of god that answers to that description sounds like a dictator too fond of his own personality cult.
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    At least two very wise priests have implied to me that it is still possible for the non-believer to enter Heaven. I can personally see the argument for that and am mostly in line with that line of thought. As has been said by someone else though, only God has the privy of knowing and choosing who enters Heaven, so speculation is kinda redundant :yes:
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    The very idea of heaven is ridiculous. This is the 21st century. Time to grow up and move beyond ignorant fairy tales.
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    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    No.

    And I don't think the worshiping part is what matters most here, I think it's the acknowledgment of your Creator that's more important, which can define a person's potential exit into hell or heaven.

    You also need to try and look at it from the Divines perspective (obviously we can never emulate how it actually is). You create humans, you give them substance, guidance, protection - you send them messengers with clear messages of their existence - and the humans decide they are mad men and this is all the work of nature and physical laws.

    I can personally see the issue here.
    I think God's a big boy, he doesn't need to get into a hissy fit because he's not getting attention.
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    (Original post by Reform)
    You're still going to end up with murderers and paedophiles who haven't repented their sins in an environment no individual can bear.

    Tbh, I'd rather take the former.
    Oh no, for a period of time which is representative of exactly 0% of eternity, I live my life a moral person because I can tell right from wrong, but I don't believe in an entity which hasn't given any reason to believe or any evidence for belief in 2000 years, I deserve to spend 100% of time in this horrible place being tortured!

    Yea, your god sure is loving.
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    Religion is just a bunch of hypocrites trying to screw money out of the gullible.
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    (Original post by MrCarmady)
    that's called pascal's wager, and is stupid. from the religious viewpoint, god is omniscient and so would know you believe in him just because you're hedging your bets, and are thus insincere in your belief -> deserve to go to hell. from the non-religious viewpoint, the likelihood that a specific religion is the correct kind of theism is basically zero, and so the outcome matrix makes non-belief more attractive.
    Ah I didn't know that was what pascal's wager referred to; I'd heard the term before. Yeah, it is completely illogical. And it's amazing how close-minded some religious people can be to any sort of academic interpretation or criticism of their religion.
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    No because it doesn't exist.
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    (Original post by mc1000)
    As an intelligent Christian (no jokes about the oxymoron please), I believe there are plenty of non-believers who do get into heaven.

    The Bible makes it explicity clear that God's final judgement will be just.

    For God's judgement to be just, that means that he has to consider each and every person on a case-by-case basis. It also means that he has to consider every aspect of each and every person's life.

    In order for the judgement to be just, he has to give considerably more leeway to the people who were more disadvantaged in life - such as those who were brought up in broken homes, had it ingrained into their malleable minds from a young age that God is a bastard, and ended up addicted to heroin. In addition to this, if they don't have the intelligence to consider a contrasting point of view, this will also be taken into account on judgement day. How can an atheist ever become a Christian if they don't understand the contrasting arguments?

    Inevitably, most of these people will go through life rejecting Christianity in spite of what they read - solely as a result of the bad hand they've been dealt - and this will sympathetically be taken into account by God.

    I believe the same applies to a Muslim (purely for the sake of argument) who has been brought up strictly reading the Quran and is disowned for even considering reading the Bible. How can this person have the same chance of being a Christian as someone who's brought up in a Christian household?! And I think that saying you HAVE to be a Christian to get into heaven is therefore a big flaw in what most Christians seem to believe.

    In contrast, a lot more will be expected of the life of a devout christian who was brought up in a lovely middle-class family, and was taken along to church every week as a child. He stayed in the right crowd throughout his life, and lead a thoroughly moral life. Maybe he's intelligent and has the ability to dissect and critically analyse every Bible verse, and maybe he's not; either way, it will therefore be expected, on Judgement Day, that this guy is a Christian - and if he is not, then he isn't accepted into heaven.

    Hell, even an intelligent atheist who knows the Bible inside out could feasibly get into heaven; it all depends on his/her background and many other factors. Even the specific way in which his/her mind interprets the contrasting evidence (e.g. people with more scientific brains are far more likely to reject Christianity - so although it would superfically seem to disadvantage them (hypothetically speaking), its apparent disadvantage is taken into account to make it fair against someone with a way of thinking that automatically concludes that Christianity is the correct way.)

    Finally, what about a baby who dies? Or the members of an uncontacted tribe in the Amazon Rainforest? Neither of these have heard of Jesus.

    It's all based on what you do with what you've been given; and God judges each person individually and completely equally. There's no discrimination of those who have been disadvantaged.


    Incidentally, I also believe that Hell is just a term for non-existence. Eternal torture is certainly not in keeping with a just punishment.

    But why does God have to be fair and act accordingly to our own conception of justice? Maybe God has a different idea of what is justice than us, perhaps that would make him seem like a cruel and harsh God in our own eyes but he's God and he can do whatever he likes.

    I think we would all like to think there is a kind, reasonable and fair God. But there are many religions (including christianity) in which God can be pretty harsh yet we seem to ignore these bits. I don't believe in God, but If there was a God I don't think it would be contrary to reason for him to send me to hell for eternity. Sure that sounds a bit overkill but if that is what he wants why the hell not? Don't you think you are bending your conception of God to what you would like him to be rather than what your scripture says?

    (No personal attack btw, I'd just like to hear your answer as you seem like an intelligent reasonable Christian.)
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    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    No.

    You also need to try and look at it from the Divines perspective...you send them messengers with clear messages of their existence - and the humans decide they are mad men and this is all the work of nature and physical laws.

    I can personally see the issue here.
    What, a beardy man that may or may not have lived in a desert in the Middle East over 2000 years ago is a clear message? "Holy" books written by dozens of authors and edited by even more throughout the ages are supposed to be clear?

    Listen man, if God appeared in front of my and presented irrefutable evidence in favour of his existence then I would accept it and believe in him. Until then, naw.
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    (Original post by mc1000)
    It's all based on what you do with what you've been given; and God judges each person individually and completely equally. There's no discrimination of those who have been disadvantaged.


    I've had a good upbringing, financially stable, good area, my dads not a drunk, my mums not a whore etc. They both believe in god although don't actively worship. I did however get dragged to church once a month when i was little much to my disgust however this stopped after 7or 8 years old. I also studied R.s. up to A-level looked at all the evidence and arguments for and against god and concluded that it was rubbish.

    I have been given many opportunities to believe in god but i'm 100% he doesn't it exist. If i turn out to be wrong to what extent would this be taken into account?
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    A good god would not punish people after having made them with the opinion that he didn't exist. So either the god of the Bible is not a good god, or he doesn't exist.
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    Also who the **** neg repped the opening post? Classic case of religious people not being able to accept a different point of view.
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    (Original post by BabyfacedDom)
    Sorry if this is a standard thread. Basically i 100% dismiss that there is a god dislike religion a lot. However had a discussion this evening about religion etc which got me thinking.

    If heaven and hell did exist and god was waiting for me when i died would the fact that i didn't worship him prevent me from getting into heaven?

    I think i am a good person kind considerate helpful don't steal murder or any other crimes. I do that cos of my own moral compass not cos a book told me to. Surely i would be allowed in?

    Also if i was allowed in surely this makes worshipping god pointless? and religious people have effectively wasted their sunday mornings?
    I am an atheist too, however your religious beliefs often depend on your ethnicity or what part of the world you're born in. some Christians therefore believe that even if you don't believe in God you can get into heaven ( if it exists) as a benevolent God wouldn't punish someone for being born into a non-Christian family etc.
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    (Original post by BabyfacedDom)
    Sorry if this is a standard thread. Basically i 100% dismiss that there is a god dislike religion a lot. However had a discussion this evening about religion etc which got me thinking.

    If heaven and hell did exist and god was waiting for me when i died would the fact that i didn't worship him prevent me from getting into heaven?

    I think i am a good person kind considerate helpful don't steal murder or any other crimes. I do that cos of my own moral compass not cos a book told me to. Surely i would be allowed in?

    Also if i was allowed in surely this makes worshipping god pointless? and religious people have effectively wasted their sunday mornings?
    No. If you don't believe in Jesus (God) then NO you will not enter into Heaven. Fact.

    You may well be the most perfect human being on the planet but without believing in Jesus and following his commandments and avoiding /ask for repentance of sin, the eternal destination for such a person is hell.

    No matter how good we think we are here on earth, our sin is like filthy rags to the LORD, asking forgiveness and repenting sincerely is a good start,

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