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William Hague: we cannot rule out military action on Syria

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Original post by Darkarium
Where is the evidence Assad forces committed this massacre? Reporters aren't allowed in the country, so then all we have is the word of the FSA against the word of the government. Why would Assad want his forces to execute children thus provoking an invasion? Why would enlisted forces of any country execute their own children even if it was directly ordered? Aren't extreme Islamists, the sort who compose the FSA, more likely to employ methods such as beheading? And how do we know that it wasn't a third party such as Al Qaeda or a band of pro-regime civilians?

So why do people mindlessly believe it all unquestioningly? Could it be because we're being misguided by propaganda such as photos from Iraq all day on BBC news? Could that have something to do with the fact that it is extremely beneficial for Israel, the West and the Gulf states that Assad falls and a leader that sides with us over Iran / Russia / China replaces him?

You have to be extremely ignorant to not be asking any of these questions. As far as our leaders are concerned this situation is not a humanitarian crisis, it's part of a broader geopolitical strategy for all countries involved and they're selling it to us with these skewed reports and blatant propaganda. The real victims of it all are the Syrians who were happy living under Assad, the Christians who now fear persecution and the peaceful protestors that genuinely opposed Assad whose movement was completely hijacked.


i wouldnt be surpirsed if assad was shown to order various attorciities, but the reality on the ground will be that there are attrocities being commintted by both sides in what is now effectively a civil war, as was the case in libya and is what happens in pretty much all the muslim states int he same state - hence why the us finds it so difficult to come down on one side or the other, it knows both sides are as animalistic as each onther ins these sorts of cases, the rebeles certainly arnt peace loving freedom fighters, no doubt many are al-queda trained and or saudi funded militia
Reply 41
I like Hague more than Cameron. I think he's a good foreign secretary.


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Original post by Elipsis
That worked great with the Taliban, didn't it? lol...

I say just leave them to it. It's time Arabs and Middle Easterners learnt the value of our help instead of bitching when we give it and bitching when we don't. If they can't be grateful screw them. It's not like we help out Africans facing worse problems, why are they any different?


yes it did...they cleaned afghanistan of opium and offered to hand over Osama bin Laden to USA...

[video="youtube;eBAEk2dBm4E"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBAEk2dBm4E[/video]
Reply 43
Original post by Indo-Chinese Food
Surely you are not so naive to fail note the pattern of various muslim users on TSR such as Persy whinging about West attacks on sunni muslim leaders, but egging them on to attack Shia dictators such as Assad. You would also note the various posts about Attrocities in syria but little referance to killings by the sunni saudi backed Bahrain governement , or even the tens of thousands of muslims sunni saddam killed too. i suppose it reflects the sunni majortiy on tsr membership?

perhaps you can glean from this Persy and co have little concern for muslims, just simply a political agenda that benefits sunni islam?


Im Sunni.
Original post by ak137
Im Sunni.



So?
Reply 45
Original post by Indo-Chinese Food
So?


Just saying, im not in your "majority". The majority of TSR sunni Muslims dont want intervention in our lands. Only the Salafis do.
Original post by ak137
Just saying, im not in your "majority". The majority of TSR sunni Muslims dont want intervention in our lands. Only the Salafis do.


From my reading of TSR, more muslims are bitching about Assad in syria than anything else. And none have bitched about Bahrain. In fact they have often bitched about the fact the West ousted saddam, interupting his killing of thousands and shia muslims.

seems hypocritical
Reply 47
Original post by Indo-Chinese Food
From my reading of TSR, more muslims are bitching about Assad in syria than anything else. And none have bitched about Bahrain. In fact they have often bitched about the fact the West ousted saddam, interupting his killing of thousands and shia muslims.

seems hypocritical

Well, they do say the revolution will not be televised hence Bahrain isnt.
Original post by ak137
Well, they do say the revolution will not be televised hence Bahrain isnt.


Bahrain is very public- did you forget the protests violence and killing on all news prior to the Bahrain GP? Unfortunatley bahrain is a foreind fo our 'friend' saudi, so our governemnt havent come out with any specific statement about their givnmt as hague has done here. But they are kiling muslims too ( largely shias i would think) given that bahrain is a shia majority country currently oppressed by a minority sunni saudi backed givernment ( very much like Saddam in Iraq).

Any comments of concern from TSRs sunni muslims> nope
Reply 49
Original post by Perseveranze

2. Most of the FSA are Syrian army defects. Who only defected because they found the Assad regime brutal/oppressive - they would not be joining the FSA if it was equally so.


That is probably the most naive statement I have ever seen you write on TSR. People defect for a variety of reasons, and it's pretty much always pure self interest. Some high-minded ideology about abhorrence to the Assad regime's brutality is total nonsense; bar conscripts, what on earth were they doing in the Syrian army prior to the uprising if they had any sort of sense of humanity? The reason that they are defecting is because they feel they can get something out of the process; if they feel they are in a sinking ship, then better jump to somewhere secure where they may get rewarded in the future.

Perseveranze

- Mujahideen (many with the right intentions) are travelling all across the world to do Jihad in Syria. Just recently reports came of 600 Libyans crossing the border to join FSA. The situation is becomming similar to that of the Bosnian war.


Sounds a lot like Al-Qaeda too. But of course you deny this.

Perseveranze

As for peace, that's not going to happen for as long as Assad is in power.


And not for a long time after he goes.
Reply 50
Original post by Perseveranze
Just supply them weapons and they'll handle the rest.


Should that be the case for any emerging Shia militias in Bahrain?
Original post by Elipsis
That worked great with the Taliban, didn't it? lol...

I say just leave them to it. It's time Arabs and Middle Easterners learnt the value of our help instead of bitching when we give it and bitching when we don't. If they can't be grateful screw them. It's not like we help out Africans facing worse problems, why are they any different?


Military intervention is a good thing. War isn't. That is why many people, including me, strongly approved of the military action that took place in Libya, but strongly disapproved of what took place in Iraq and Afghanistan. The death tolls in Libya were negligible compared to Iraq and Aghanistan and a huge number of lives were saved as a result. Syria is much more difficult because of the huge risks involved. Syria has the unconditional backing and support or Russia, China and more importantly Iran.

The West could intervene in Syria and save many thousands of lives, as was done in Libya, however it would be a lot riskier than Libya and Britain, and the West would suffer hugely financially and diplomatically so it is not in Britain's economic interest, but moral interest. Unfortunately economic interest outweighs moral interest as is case most of the time. Libyan oil exports are very important globally and account for around 10% of the world's oil supply. This isn't the case in Syria.

This is also why richer governments and individuals "don't care about those suffering in Africa" as you put it. The tools and financial resources are there to alleviate large amounts of poverty across most of Africa but at a huge economic price to those governments. So there is simply no incentive to undertake such projects.

And the comparison with the Taliban is ridiculous. Although there are Islamist elements to the Syrian resistance, it is inevitable as most of the country's population are Muslim. However the Syrian opposition and Free Syrian Army have made it absoloutely clear that their resistance is not sectarian or religiously motivated in nature, and that they fully support, and fight for the implementation of democracy. Vastly different from the Taliban.

It's very childish to treat this issue so lightly and generalise about Arabs "bitching", but this is the internet so meh.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Rat_Bag
Should that be the case for any emerging Shia militias in Bahrain?


No because the situation in Bahrain is no way near on the scale of Syria. Bahrain has problems yes, but only about 20 people have been estimated to have been killed so far by the Bahrain government as a result of the protesting.

Around 10,000 have been killed in Syria, with over 100 killed in one day in the Houla massacre after the so-called Kofi Annan "peace plan" was implemented.
Original post by Indo-Chinese Food
From my reading of TSR, more muslims are bitching about Assad in syria than anything else. And none have bitched about Bahrain. In fact they have often bitched about the fact the West ousted saddam, interupting his killing of thousands and shia muslims.

seems hypocritical


No it isn't. Bahrain is hardly even a relevant issue now because the situation there is not a humanitarian crisis. The death toll in Bahrain is miniscule (Under 50 people have been killed with most figures in the media saying that 20 have been killed so far as a result of the protests).

You can't even begin to compare that to Syria with a current death toll of 10,000 and continuous shelling of civillian areas, even right in front of UN observers and over the borders of other countries such as Lebanon and Turkey.

It's not hypocrisy at all.
I think our government should intervene when they feel it's appropriate to intervene. I'm not going to be foolish enough to assume I can calculate what the best method of interventionism is or how it will effect Britain. That's for the foreign secretary to work out considering he has more access to data than I do. If the government feel that it's not in our interest to intervene now and that it'll worsen the situation, I'd support them. If they feel otherwise and that we should intervene now and it won't hurt us or the Syrian people as much as a lack of intervention would, I'd support them. The deaths of Syrians as the day go past isn't the most pleasant site but in the same way the police wouldn't go marching into a building just because people are being killed, we shouldn't march into Syria just because people are being killed. We have to calculate the methods, what would be the likely action the person would take and do a risk-benefit analysis.
Reply 55
Original post by planetearth
Military intervention is a good thing. War isn't. That is why many people, including me, strongly approved of the military action that took place in Libya, but strongly disapproved of what took place in Iraq and Afghanistan. The death tolls in Libya were negligible compared to Iraq and Aghanistan and a huge number of lives were saved as a result.


Seems you only therefore support or oppose military intervention retrospectively (i.e if not many people die and the outcome was good, then you support(ed) it, but if lots of people die and the outcome was bad, then you oppose(d) it). If large numbers of people start dying in Libya as a result of the military intervention (the country may enter civil war in the near future), will your support for military intervention there change?

Original post by planetearth

And the comparison with the Taliban is ridiculous. Although there are Islamist elements to the Syrian resistance, it is inevitable as most of the country's population are Muslim. However the Syrian opposition and Free Syrian Army have made it absoloutely clear that their resistance is not sectarian or religiously motivated in nature, and that they fully support, and fight for the implementation of democracy. Vastly different from the Taliban.


When the West supported armed opposition to Russian presence in Afghanistan, the Taliban was one faction of many in the messy and opaque reality that is an emergent armed resistance.

Arming the Syrian armed opposition is a very comparable example to the arming of the Afghan armed opposition in the 1980s.

Original post by planetearth

It's very childish to treat this issue so lightly and generalise about Arabs "bitching", but this is the internet so meh.


Although I wouldn't have put it in the OP's words, there is a lot of truth in the essence of what was said.
Reply 56
Peace keepers best bet. Though let's be honest, with the russians link to Syria, that's never gonna happen
Reply 57
i think the military action in Iraq, Afghanistan Libya etc. speak for themselves ... it creates far more problems than it solves.
Reply 58
Original post by ak137
Just saying, im not in your "majority". The majority of TSR sunni Muslims dont want intervention in our lands. Only the Salafis do.


and what exactly makes them 'your' lands?
A humanitarian intervention with the approval of the Security Council would most likely put an end to the bloodshed, and further violence could be prevented if the members of the intervention force were to push for regime change in the country.

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