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God to Jesus. I just condemned the human race. Now go die to save them.

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    God to Jesus. I just condemned the human race. Now go die to save them.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ott1...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqP_f...eature=related

    I think that the notion that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty perpetrator is immoral. Be it a willing sacrifice as some believe with Jesus or unwilling victim.

    I also think that God, who has a plethora of other options, would have come up with a moral way instead of an immoral and barbaric human sacrifice.

    I agree with scriptures say that we are all responsible for our own righteousness as well as our own iniquity and that God cannot be bribed by sacrifice.

    Ezekiel 18:20
    The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    Psalm 49:7
    None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

    I believe as I do because I believe that the first rule of morality is harm/care of children.

    http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/

    Do you agree that the notion of substitutionary atonement is immoral and that God’s first principle of morality is hare/harm and that this would prevent him from demanding the death of his son?

    Regards
    DL
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    Jesus didn't die on the cross if you read the Bible PROPERLY.
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    (Original post by A level Az)
    Jesus didn't die on the cross if you read the Bible PROPERLY.
    Ummm...
    Matthew 27
    47 When some of those standing there heard this, they said, “He’s calling Elijah.”

    48 Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49 The rest said, “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to save him.”

    50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

    John 19
    31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear

    Mark 15
    36 Someone ran, filled a sponge with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to take him down,” he said.

    37 With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.

    38 The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. 39 And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, saw how he died, he said, “Surely this man was the Son of God!”

    Luke 23
    44 It was now about noon, and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon, 45 for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.

    I'm pretty sure he does
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    Christianity makes very little sense from a philosophical point of view.
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    The Bible is so riddled with basic factual inconsistencies that trying to extract moral teachings from it is basically pointless: are you going to go with the vengeful, Sodom-crushing shellfish-hater from the Old Testament or the all-loving, pacifist, 'turn the other cheek, man' miracle-hippy from the New? The Jesus who forgives whores and heretics or the Jesus who trashes up the marketplace because he doesn't like what they're doing?

    Your own interpretations rub off onto any kind of 'lesson' learned from the Bible, but some things in it - for example, killing your own son 'cos the other guys you magicked up did bad stuff - are just clearly bad and wrong.

    However, there's also zero point in arguing with religious people, especially on a topic like this, because rejecting part of your religion is something you have to do yourself.
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    (Original post by big-bang-theory)
    Ummm...
    Matthew 27
    47 When some of those standing there heard this, they said, “He’s calling Elijah.”

    48 Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49 The rest said, “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to save him.”

    50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

    John 19
    31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear

    Mark 15
    36 Someone ran, filled a sponge with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to take him down,” he said.

    37 With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.

    38 The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. 39 And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, saw how he died, he said, “Surely this man was the Son of God!”

    Luke 23
    44 It was now about noon, and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon, 45 for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.

    I'm pretty sure he does
    No, he doesn't. Clearly you like to cherry pick verses and ignore the ones that contradict your ignorant view.
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    Obvious troll is obvious.
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    (Original post by A level Az)
    No, he doesn't. Clearly you like to cherry pick verses and ignore the ones that contradict your ignorant view.
    This isn't trolling. Totally.
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    It's a bit silly really. The logical knowledge of the people who formulated christianity was not tip-top and so it does not necessarily hold perfectly well under scrutiny.

    God is all-powerful. He knows all that is to come, has come and is. He creates humanity knowing they will be sinful. And yet when you pitch it to a Christian that God is theoretically the only viable source of all evil in the world they'll say that no, it's humanities own failure. But if all humanities beauty is attributed to God, why not his failure and Sin?

    He sent his own son, who may or may not be himself, to die in order to free us of the sins god created us with the knowledge of us having. Although his son didn't really die because he came back from the dead, and if you're a diehard Godsquad like Jesus then dying is going to a much better place and therefore very little sacrifice.
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    Your ignorance is rather unsettling. Let me clarify a few details.
    First of all, in traditional Christian theology at least, Jesus IS God. God didn't send down a random innocent to pay the price for sin, he came down himself.
    The idea that God needs to punish sin because he is holy or whatever (as though God needed anything) is a frequent misconception: "I desire mercy, not sacrifice". The whole law scheme of repaying evil with evil was not forced upon mankind by God, but demanded by mankind itself ("Moses gave you these commands because of your hardened hearts"), ever since, as represented in Genesis, men chose to decide for themselves what was good and evil. Ever since, as Paul puts it, man has "fallen under the curse of the law", and there was only one way to free them from this bondage: God Himself descended to Earth as a man and died by that same law, destroying its power forever. "Mercy triumphs over judgement"
    In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus explicitates the differences between divine law and human law. "You have been told 'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth'. But I tell you, turn the cheek etc."
    Yes, God was angry at what the world had become because of man. But it was this wrath that lead him to pay the ultimate price.
    Hope this helped
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    (Original post by Igrisok)
    The Bible is so riddled with basic factual inconsistencies that trying to extract moral teachings from it is basically pointless: are you going to go with the vengeful, Sodom-crushing shellfish-hater from the Old Testament or the all-loving, pacifist, 'turn the other cheek, man' miracle-hippy from the New? The Jesus who forgives whores and heretics or the Jesus who trashes up the marketplace because he doesn't like what they're doing?

    Your own interpretations rub off onto any kind of 'lesson' learned from the Bible, but some things in it - for example, killing your own son 'cos the other guys you magicked up did bad stuff - are just clearly bad and wrong.

    However, there's also zero point in arguing with religious people, especially on a topic like this, because rejecting part of your religion is something you have to do yourself.
    Well said.

    +ve rep

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    (Original post by A level Az)
    No, he doesn't. Clearly you like to cherry pick verses and ignore the ones that contradict your ignorant view.
    Well I just pointed out it says quite explicitly that he died in all 4 gospel narratives. Would you care to point to the verses I'm ignoring that say he didn't die at all?
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    (Original post by Greatest I am)
    God to Jesus. I just condemned the human race. Now go die to save them.

    I think that the notion that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty perpetrator is immoral. Be it a willing sacrifice as some believe with Jesus or unwilling victim.

    I also think that God, who has a plethora of other options, would have come up with a moral way instead of an immoral and barbaric human sacrifice.

    I agree with scriptures say that we are all responsible for our own righteousness as well as our own iniquity and that God cannot be bribed by sacrifice.

    Ezekiel 18:20
    The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    Psalm 49:7
    None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

    I believe as I do because I believe that the first rule of morality is harm/care of children.

    http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/

    Do you agree that the notion of substitutionary atonement is immoral and that God’s first principle of morality is hare/harm and that this would prevent him from demanding the death of his son?

    Regards
    DL
    Firstly, God wasn't the one that condemned humanity. We condemned ourselves by our rebellion against God. The bible states very clearly that all who rebel against God will have the punishment of death; this is what all humanity chooses to do. The only person who never deserved to die is Jesus.

    The question of why Jesus needed to die goes back to the very essence of God's character- that God is both extremely loving and extremely just. God's love means He doesn't want anyone to perish (2 Peter 3:9) and His justice means that there has to be a way for Him to deal with sin. The question of how a holy God can dwell with a people who rebel against him is a tension outlined the whole way through the Bible, only reconciled through Jesus' death and resurrection. Jesus' death and resurrection was the way God, in His great love for us, was able to both deal with our rebellion and enable us to live if we trust in Him.

    As for Jesus- it's important to consider who Christians believe Jesus us. Christians believe Jesus to be God Himself in human form, the second person of God in the Trinity. Therefore God isn't a bully picking on an innocent victim- God is placing the punishment on Himself so that humanity can go free. Those two passages you quoted are right in saying that humans cannot take the place of humans- but this is referring to the vast majority of humanity, claiming that man cannot get to God on His own. Jesus is the exception since He is both man and God and the only one who never rebelled against God and was therefore the only person who could ever stand as a substitutionary sacrifice in our place. God doesn't demand the death of his son- at any point Jesus could have escaped his death and would've been completely able to do so. Jesus didn't even have to become man in the first place. But as God in human form, Jesus chose to take our punishment in our place because of His great love for us.
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    The ******* with the bible is its written by loads of different people decades and centuries apart so its a bit of a dog's dinner.

    Thats why is pointless trying to get any thing consistent out of it. At least it keeps bible bashers busy trying to make sense of it.

    Mono theistic religions like Christianity often have *******s with trying to make god both omnipotent and have bad stuff happen. The Trinity is an attempt to get round this.

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