[Miryo]

(Original post by Old School)
A lot of people confuse arrogance with confidence.

As far as I'm concerned arrogance is when you run your mouth but can't back it up.

Confidence is when you run your mouth but have the grades/achievements to show for it.

Also, people have big egos and don't like it when people are better than them.

Most people on my uni course don't like me very much because I am currently averaging 85% on essays and 95% on exams. What they don't understand is that I have worked hard every day since I started, not just in the 4 weeks leading up to an exam/essay hand in. I'm also not ashamed of this.

This, I feel like this so often.
People ask me before exams what I think I'll get and honestly, I'll say around 90% and they think im being over confident and it annoys them. I think it unsettles them a bit lol

[Miryo]

(Original post by No Man)
Arrogance is one of the sole reasons why the USA is hated, as well as the Americans that conform to the arrogant stereotype.

Also a sole reason why there standards of living are higher than everywhere else. Arrogance isn't always a bad thing, its about doing what you want regardless of what others will think of you.

[writergirl]

(Original post by Bill_Gates)
in the real world no-one really cares.

Absolutely this. In the context of the school walls it's deemed 'stupid' or 'nerdy' to be interested in your work, or involved with things...outside of school it's highly desirable. You're never too cool for school.

(can you tell I was a geek? haha)

[Blind Ferret]

There needs to be a clear definition of intelligence. I have friends whom achieved high grades in High School, College and probably in Uni, but they come out with some really dumb things at times. It's really weird knowing that this person got something like 98% on his A-Level Law exam but has zero common sense. There's intelligent people who can't do exams, or struggle I should say. It comes down to who can spew out the most accurate rhetoric on the day.

If you do well on your exams, well done. Just do go around pretending that you're high and mighty. I've spoken to many Uni students who are so pretentious it's untrue, they have such an overinflated sense of self-worth. Now I'm sure there's many down to earth students, who aren't assclowns, and to them - I wish you the best of luck with your degree.

[Forget that]

(Original post by Octohedral)
I don't get it. If you say you got 5As at A-level on this website you get negged, if you say it in real life people tell you to stop bragging, and instantly dislike you. If you say you got 3Cs, but are trying really hard everyone likes you.

I'm willing to bet that in most cases the person who got 5As tried harder than the person who got 3Cs. Maybe that's not always true, but very few people get 5As by lazing around, so why is it a taboo topic? A couple of answers;

1. Jealousy. A bit of jealousy is healthy, it makes us stronger people. What's the point in just pretending someone didn't do better than you rather than using it as motivation to improve yourself?

2. 'Lad' culture. Work is uncool. This is just tragic, particularly coming from people writing on computers.

I think society has become far too overindulgent - at school we literally weren't allowed to do well because it would 'upset the other children'. Gifted and talented courses were opened to everyone in the interest of 'fairness'. Well, how about helping the other children, and giving them something to aspire to?

Thoughts?

Edit: I'm talking about school here, as it's important in how people develop - I know nobody cares when you grow up

Edit 2: Ok, lots of people are saying arrogance, or that A-levels don't mean you are intelligent (I disagree, particularly for humanities), so lets expand this. Why is it arrogant for someone to talk about what they've done well? What does that mean? Surely if they've tried hard it's not luck, they've earned it, so it's hardly the same as boasting about wealth?

On the other hand, very good points with the fact that intelligence brings its own rewards in life

Edit 3: I got 3 Cs at A-Level.

Sorry OP but how is anyone being 'punished'?
You have the grades! That is the reward for being clever.
Also, anyone with intelligence would know to take opinions on a forum like this with a pinch of salt, and not get to upset by some negs

[jessie*lou]

(Original post by Octohedral)

1. Jealousy. A bit of jealousy is healthy, it makes us stronger people. What's the point in just pretending someone didn't do better than you rather than using it as motivation to improve yourself?
[/B]

I agree with you that jealousy have a major factor on this.
I think most people can't help in feeling insecure near someone who has succeeded in something they have not.
People's egos have a major role in this and it's hard for some to be impartial enough to see beyond their own feelings and just be happy for someone else's success.

[tpxvs]

(Original post by That Bearded Man)
It's against the norm. The norm by definition is the majority, the intelligent mst therefore be in the minority. It is a good point though. Buckle down, study hard and you will realise how proud you are when one of the dickheads from school asks "do you want fries with that?"

Ahaha this was hilarious! I feel bad LOLing though as i have friends that have left school and work in mcdonalds (with no future prospects as yet) .. oops .

(Original post by Skaði)
Seriously? As I said previously (though I don't remember much about writing my previous post, so soz if I repeat myself), there's some difference between jealousy and arrogance. I don't get jealous by other's exam results, but I do get pissed off when they go around telling everyone what they got on Facebook or whatnot. Likewise, I always get pissed off when people think that they've received loads of negs/no one likes them because everyone's jealous. Usually it's:

'I go to private school and even though my family aren't that rich (despite going abroad every year and oh, they're paying for my car) no one likes me when I tell them this. Are they jealous?' i hate how people judge wealth by holidays and cars?! I was bought my first car. So far, i bet youre thinking im a spoilt brat? My parents are intelligent and have well paying jobs (but whos to say they arent putting 90% of it aside towards a disabled relative? people dont always go broadcasting things like this.. or perhaps theyre saving for their pension or giving it all away to a particular charity that their best friend died of and their kids have inherited..etc) the reason i was bought a brand new car was because theyre paranoid about the safety aspect and a lot of parents might be, they may rather this than spend money elsewhere. I would be perfectly happy purchasing a 2nd hand car all by myself for a grand but what am i to do when theres a new car on the drive and parents like this?

Or:

'I got 10 A*s in my GCSEs but no one seems to care. In fact, they hate me. Are they jealous?'

its not "jealousy", yes i wish and will always wish/aspire to be as intelligent as people that are more intelligent than I am, thats natural right? But its not always jealousy..especially if you're more intelligent :s if i had 12 A*s why would i be jealous?
I realise this has become rather off-topic here, but not everyone dislikes intelligence because they're 'jealous', and they'll likely get even more annoyed when you decide that jealousy is the only reason for their hostility. In fact, I'd wager that a lot of people are indifferent. I'm not saying jealousy doesn't exist, but to think that people assume that you're arrogant because they're jealous isn't always true. In my experience, people assume that you're arrogant because you are. Just my two cents, though

(Original post by Astronomical)
No idea why this was negged. Repped to restore balance.

I have always been one of the brightest in my year, just by chance really - I wouldn't say I'd worked any more than the average person until the lower sixth - but it hasn't ever caused me any problems at school.

I agree with the OP in that there is an element of jealousy, but equally I think you have to consider that jealousy is just a natural trait, and part of being human. For instance, on results days, when asked how I've done, I'd usually respond "quite well" rather than "well, I got 100% on x, 95% on y and only 90% on z" which is what some people do, and then these people complain about people not liking it. Put yourself in their shoes, you wouldn't like it either.

Of course sometimes people are just too nosey for their own good and persist in asking for specific results, and things can get a bit awkward when you tell them you have full marks on some exams, and then they say they've got a D in them... but without lying, what better option do you have?

Totally agree with this ^ I also when asked always reply with "pretty well, thanks (hope you did too)" then if they dig it out of me i guess i will tell them.. people react different come congratulate etc whereas others sigh or moan which is weird considering they ASKED for this, i suppose what bugs them more is with me most people dont think im clever- i dont ever write fb statuses and when i was in school my "group" weren't exactly clever/nerdy.. I dont feel the need to tell people about my progress to get their congratulations :s im perfectly content getting that from my family lol but yeah it does wind me up when people are like "yeah i did sooooo bad on xyz only got 90%" or even if they say 60% that still annoys me a little, only because theyre in effect belittling just about everyone who did worse so irrespective of if ive personally still done better, this attitude some people have is still annoying. I'd get so much slack if i was to say 'oh noooooo i diddnt get an A in zyx' which would be equally "important" as they class important as = need it to get into uni.

Rant over

[Octohedral]

(Original post by Forget that)
Sorry OP but how is anyone being 'punished'?
You have the grades! That is the reward for being clever.
Also, anyone with intelligence would know to take opinions on a forum like this with a pinch of salt, and not get to upset by some negs

Tbh, this is more a case of boredom than being worried about negs

I think it is an important discussion - we clearly live in a culture where doing well academically is not given the emphasis and appreciation it needs. I agree that intelligence is its own reward though

[The Socktor]

(Original post by Octohedral)
Fear of 'arrogance' is so deeply ingrained into British society that people can't see that there isn't a logical reason why arrogance is a bad thing.

Frankly if you see things like that I wouldn't be surprised when people don't like you. Naturally if you go around saying "My grades are better than yours, hahahaha!", you're not going to win over many friends which as I recall was the whole reason you started this thread.

Anyway, even besides that, there are practical reasons why arrogance is a bad thing. If, for instance, you were a footballer, and you went around saying "I'm the star player. I carry this team and everyone else is ****", take credit for all the good things the team do and blame all the other players whenever the team does something wrong, the rest of the team obviously aren't going to like you. Hence they're not going to enjoy working with you and thus not enjoy playing. If they're not going to enjoy it, they're not going to play well and may even quit altogether, resulting in instability.

The same can be applied to any other working environment (well, except maybe one in which you work entirely on you're own, but even then the effects of you being arrogant towards your customers, fans, etc. would probably be pretty detrimental aswell).

Another issue is that arrogant people have a tendency not to see their own flaws; this is a serious problem because if you don't see when you've done something wrong, obviously you will not avoid doing it again.

I suggest reading this: http://www.woodassociates.net/rap/Se...%208_31_11.pdf

(Original post by Octohedral)
As for academic achievement - it doesn't even have to be flashing it, we literally aren't allowed to talk about it.

And it's totally matter of having earned it - why can't people flash around money they've worked hard for?

You can go and do that if you like; there's no law against it you know. However, there's also no law obligating them to like you for it.

[Forget that]

(Original post by Octohedral)
Tbh, this is more a case of boredom than being worried about negs

I think it is an important discussion - we clearly live in a culture where doing well academically is not given the emphasis and appreciation it needs. I agree that intelligence is its own reward though

From your initial post i got the impression you were just ranting about the TSR forum but for society generally i see your point for sure.
However, i believe that actually people are now realizing the importance of education- people don't really get a hard time for studying once they get past primary school, at least that's what i found anyway

[The Socktor]

(Original post by Barden)
I don't really understand why TSR is playing dumb in this thread.

We all know that intelligence is stigmatised from an early age.


Or has nobody here ever heard the terms 'nerd' or 'geek'?

We have, however, the same occurs for people believed to be unintelligent (though from my experience, many of their accusations of this are unjustified); hence words like "idiot" and "retard".

[Skaði]

(Original post by tpxvs)
i hate how people judge wealth by holidays and cars?!

That's nice. I do, too. I'm not judging, it's just something I see a lot of the time on here. But thanks for implying that I do; it's always nice to see (another) user put words into my mouth. Cheers for that

(Original post by tpxvs)
I was bought my first car. So far, i bet youre thinking im a spoilt brat?

Nope. I think you're overreacting, though. You might need to work on that.

(Original post by tpxvs)
My parents are intelligent and have well paying jobs (but whos to say they arent putting 90% of it aside towards a disabled relative? people dont always go broadcasting things like this.. or perhaps theyre saving for their pension or giving it all away to a particular charity that their best friend died of and their kids have inherited..etc)

My mother's intelligent, and hardworking, but her job pays her £20,000 a year. In a similar vein to your first words, I hate how people judge intelligence by how much they're earning in a job.

I...don't really know how to reply to the rest of that

(Original post by tpxvs)
the reason i was bought a brand new car was because theyre paranoid about the safety aspect and a lot of parents might be, they may rather this than spend money elsewhere. I would be perfectly happy purchasing a 2nd hand car all by myself for a grand but what am i to do when theres a new car on the drive and parents like this?

Good. Safety first. My point was (a point you seem to have misunderstood) that I've come across lots of people who think that people don't like them because they come from more affluent backgrounds, and that in many cases it's not due to jealousy but because they're assuming that it's jealousy that gets on people's nerves.

Besides, many parents can barely afford to buy one car, let alone one for their kids. It's not a matter of safety, it's a matter of income: some people aren't as well off as you. One girl in my English class complained the other day because her parents had only given her a (brand new) Ford Ka, and she wanted a better car. I have nothing against rich people (I can't even believe I have to type that out) but my mum's car's a second-hand Ford Ka. It's all she can afford. Wanting to keep your child safe has nothing to do with it; it's whether or not your parents can afford to keep you as safe as they like.

Jesus

[Octohedral]

(Original post by The Socktor)
Frankly if you see things like that I wouldn't be surprised when people don't like you. Naturally if you go around saying "My grades are better than yours, hahahaha!", you're not going to win over many friends which as I recall was the whole reason you started this thread.

There are a lot of assumptions in there - not once on this thread have I told anyone my real grades, or wanted to

Arrogance is probably a bad choice of word, because it has the added connotations of a lack of self-awareness, and a false sense of your own importance, but what I'm getting at is the other aspect of it, partly self-confidence and partly just being able to talk in a neutral, factual way about things that society has deemed taboo.

You say I can say it, but people don't have to like me for it. Well that's true, but I think part of them not liking me is down to the societal pressures surrounding education. It's an attitude we can and should change.

[akash11]

Socially de-valued and being punished are not the same thing. Intelligence has for more rewards then draws backs, all successful people if those ho have done poorly academically, have all got enough cognitive ability to be deemed "intelligent".

[No Man]

(Original post by Octohedral)
Thanks. The same seems to have happened to you - I'll return the favour tomorrow when I have rep



But if there's no jealousy involved, why does arrogance matter? It doesn't hurt anyone? I think what I was getting at there was also that self-confidence and being happy with your achievements can be misinterpreted as arrogance. I'd say;
1. Arrogance: Inability to see that you are hurting someone else / falsely thinking you are better than you are / generally not being prone to changing your mind. This is clearly off-putting on a social level, though I don't tthink it really causes any harm.
2. Being happy with yourself: often interpreted as arrogance, but more sensitive and well-meaning. This is the kind of thing I think people should be allowed to do - celebrate their achievements without unnecessary resentment.

Interesting argument though I agree stuffing your grades down someone's throat isn't going to make them like you

But some people take celebrating their achievements to the next level by telling it to people who don't care (i.e TSRians or randomers on facebook), rather than their genuine friends, family, or employers, which can be seen as arrogance.

I mean, you wouldn't go in the high street with a megaphone and tell people of your achievements would you?

[princess.leia]

(Original post by Octohedral)
I don't get it. If you say you got 5As at A-level on this website you get negged, if you say it in real life people tell you to stop bragging, and instantly dislike you. If you say you got 3Cs, but are trying really hard everyone likes you.

I'm willing to bet that in most cases the person who got 5As tried harder than the person who got 3Cs. Maybe that's not always true, but very few people get 5As by lazing around, so why is it a taboo topic? A couple of answers;

1. Jealousy. A bit of jealousy is healthy, it makes us stronger people. What's the point in just pretending someone didn't do better than you rather than using it as motivation to improve yourself?

2. 'Lad' culture. Work is uncool. This is just tragic, particularly coming from people writing on computers.

I think society has become far too overindulgent - at school we literally weren't allowed to do well because it would 'upset the other children'. Gifted and talented courses were opened to everyone in the interest of 'fairness'. Well, how about helping the other children, and giving them something to aspire to?

Thoughts?

Edit: I'm talking about school here, as it's important in how people develop - I know nobody cares when you grow up

Edit 2: Ok, lots of people are saying arrogance, or that A-levels don't mean you are intelligent (I disagree, particularly for humanities), so lets expand this. Why is it arrogant for someone to talk about what they've done well? What does that mean? Surely if they've tried hard it's not luck, they've earned it, so it's hardly the same as boasting about wealth?

On the other hand, very good points with the fact that intelligence brings its own rewards in life

Edit 3: I got 3 Cs at A-Level.

Interesting thread, you've definitely got a point. From my personal experience at least, it's definitely seen as 'cooler' to not care about your work or not do homework... I wouldn't say intelligence is 'punished', but those who actually want to work can definitely be made to feel bad for working - bullying would be too strong, but it's close. You know what I mean? It's very annoying, especially during the time when everyone is applying to university and trying to show that they're determined and interested (if you are, why do you have to hide it? It would only make school more interesting) and it's unfortunately too easy to fall for the same thing and hide your interest just so you don't have to put up with remarks etc.

Anyway, hopefully this is only a school thing :P and school is finally over forever woo!

[philistine]

(Original post by Dirac Delta Function)
Jealousy and also people dislike arrogance. If you come across as arrogant, you're probably going to piss people off.

People are often quick to misapply the term 'arrogant' to those more intelligent than themselves.

In many cases, just because a person demonstrates a more sound, expansive knowledge on any given subject or discipline, he or she will be deemed, by some people at least, to be an arrogant arse. Simple jealousy. I suppose it's their way of bringing that person back down to their level, internally, if not actually.

[princess.leia]

(Original post by No Man)
But some people take celebrating their achievements to the next level by telling it to people who don't care (i.e TSRians or randomers on facebook), rather than their genuine friends, family, or employers, which can be seen as arrogance.

I mean, you wouldn't go in the high street with a megaphone and tell people of your achievements would you?

Ooo this I definitely agree with. If you're the sort of person who is genuinely happy with your achievements due to all the work you've put in, facebook doesn't need to know! That then can seem like arrogance, even if it wasn't intended to be..

[drummer]

Jealousy but don't worry, these days it's all about the brains. No one cares about if you're cool or what anymore or how rebellious you are. After all if you're doing well in academia you're at an advantage.

[quadrophenia82]

(Original post by Octohedral)
I don't get it. If you say you got 5As at A-level on this website you get negged, if you say it in real life people tell you to stop bragging, and instantly dislike you. If you say you got 3Cs, but are trying really hard everyone likes you.

I'm willing to bet that in most cases the person who got 5As tried harder than the person who got 3Cs. Maybe that's not always true, but very few people get 5As by lazing around, so why is it a taboo topic? A couple of answers;

1. Jealousy. A bit of jealousy is healthy, it makes us stronger people. What's the point in just pretending someone didn't do better than you rather than using it as motivation to improve yourself?

2. 'Lad' culture. Work is uncool. This is just tragic, particularly coming from people writing on computers.

I think society has become far too overindulgent - at school we literally weren't allowed to do well because it would 'upset the other children'. Gifted and talented courses were opened to everyone in the interest of 'fairness'. Well, how about helping the other children, and giving them something to aspire to?

Thoughts?

Edit: I'm talking about school here, as it's important in how people develop - I know nobody cares when you grow up

Edit 2: Ok, lots of people are saying arrogance, or that A-levels don't mean you are intelligent (I disagree, particularly for humanities), so lets expand this. Why is it arrogant for someone to talk about what they've done well? What does that mean? Surely if they've tried hard it's not luck, they've earned it, so it's hardly the same as boasting about wealth?

On the other hand, very good points with the fact that intelligence brings its own rewards in life

Edit 3: I got 3 Cs at A-Level.

You obviously worked hard, and your work ethic will serve you well in your future career.
Well done on your grades. Its nice to hear that sometimes isnt it? in a world where nobody cares....
You really shouldnt care what other people think, You know your bright and that should be enough. If your doing a degree that is where your work ethic should be put into action and your intelligence in your job interviews and future career. Keep it up.