[Maker]

Its a pity the Union won the American Civil War. If America was two separate countries, the Union would not have to drag around the South and be even more powerful.

[Christofferz]

Probably because the US President isn't from Alabama?

[Made in the USA]

(Original post by Maker)
Its a pity the Union won the American Civil War. If America was two separate countries, the Union would not have to drag around the South and be even more powerful.

I'm not sure atheism automatically ensures a country will be powerful. Look at the British empire for example. It once controlled 1/2 the world and it was at a time when Britain was far more religious than it is now. Today Britain far less religious and it is a 3rd rate European power

[Maker]

(Original post by Made in the USA)
I'm not sure atheism automatically ensures a country will be powerful. Look at the British empire for example. It once controlled 1/2 the world and it was at a time when Britain was far more religious than it is now. Today Britain far less religious and it is a 3rd rate European power

True, Britain was very good in using its religion to further is colonial expansion.

Still, China will be overtaking the US in around 30 years and the Chinese are mostly atheist with a few Christians and Buddhists.

I think the religiousness of America will accelerate its declined because it ignores science when it conflicts with religion such as global warming and genetic and biological sciences and down grades science education by teaching creationism.

[ExMuslim]

The USA is a secular country. The establishment clause forbids government from being entangled with religion. Our Supreme Court has done an excellent job of banning school prayer and making our country even more secular these past few decades.

[Rhadamanthus]

(Original post by ExMuslim)
The USA is a secular country. The establishment clause forbids government from being entangled with religion. Our Supreme Court has done an excellent job of banning school prayer and making our country even more secular these past few decades.

The ban on school prayer is not an example of secularism, it is an example of the federal government prohibiting the freedom of assembly and worship of religious believers just because they so happen to be on state property. If a group of religious believers wish to gather in a school and pray, and do not force others to take part, then they are not acting wrongly at all. It is incredibly unconstitutional to prevent them doing this.

[ExMuslim]

(Original post by Rhadamanthus)
The ban on school prayer is not an example of secularism, it is an example of the federal government prohibiting the freedom of assembly and worship of religious believers just because they so happen to be on state property. If a group of religious believers wish to gather in a school and pray, and do not force others to take part, then they are not acting wrongly at all. It is incredibly unconstitutional to prevent them doing this.

You misunderstand, sir. The ban prohibits teachers and principals and other state actors from leading students in prayer, and also prohibits prayer before assemblies, football games, graduation ceremonies, and other school sponsored events. It does not prohibit students from praying on school property out of their own accord, as that is protected by the free exercise clause of the U.S constitution.

[Rhadamanthus]

(Original post by ExMuslim)
You misunderstand, sir. The ban prohibits teachers and principals and other state actors from leading students in prayer, and also prohibits prayer before assemblies, football games, graduation ceremonies, and other school sponsored events. It does not prohibit students from praying on school property out of their own accord, as that is protected by the free exercise clause of the U.S constitution.

Yes, you're right, however I'm willing to wager that there are many organisations who would happily see all references to religion banned in a school environment lest it somehow 'disrupt' the learning experience of others. On what you had to say about the US being secular, I agree that the American government has done a great job in allowing the free exercise of religion and not allowing the state to establish an official religion, but the entire American project and the narrative of American history seems so steeped in religious language and allegory that there is, as Tocqueville might have said, a very uniquely American civil religion that is respected by almost everyone who lives there. It is secular in terms of governance but religious in a civil sense, if that is a remotely decipherable point to make.

[Spaz Man]

Being religious and intelligent is not mutually exclusive.

However, U.S foreign policy is being increasingly guided by their evangelical christian wacko southern base and this can be seen in their attitudes towards Israel and Iran (evangelical beliefs about Day of Judgement). This in addition to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have led to a country swamped in trillions in debt and with a military stretched to breaking point at the same time as a global financial meltdown.

[ExMuslim]

(Original post by Rhadamanthus)
Yes, you're right, however I'm willing to wager that there are many organisations who would happily see all references to religion banned in a school environment lest it somehow 'disrupt' the learning experience of others. On what you had to say about the US being secular, I agree that the American government has done a great job in allowing the free exercise of religion and not allowing the state to establish an official religion, but the entire American project and the narrative of American history seems so steeped in religious language and allegory that there is, as Tocqueville might have said, a very uniquely American civil religion that is respected by almost everyone who lives there. It is secular in terms of governance but religious in a civil sense, if that is a remotely decipherable point to make.

If we liberals have our way, yes we do indeed intend to expel religion totally from public life. We make no secret of this. It really depends on the make-up of the supreme court. I hope Obama wins the next election so we can appoint more liberal justices heh. But if Romney wins, I suspect that religion will creep back into American schools and all areas of government. What a terrible fate that would be.

[Rhadamanthus]

(Original post by ExMuslim)
If we liberals have our way, yes we do indeed intend to expel religion totally from public life. We make no secret of this. It really depends on the make-up of the supreme court. I hope Obama wins the next election so we can appoint more liberal justices heh. But if Romney wins, I suspect that religion will creep back into American schools and all areas of government. What a terrible fate that would be.

So you're quite clear that you wish to see the restriction or near-abolition of the Free Exercise Clause of the US Constitution? There are no social benefits to restricting religious practice. Preventing religion and politics influencing each other is one thing (and a thing the US has done rather well), but going so far as to restrict religious practice and using the power of the state to do so (as we have seen happen in France recently) will threaten the civil-religious fabric of the USA and most likely see it become increasingly divided along religious lines.

[ExMuslim]

(Original post by Rhadamanthus)
So you're quite clear that you wish to see the restriction or near-abolition of the Free Exercise Clause of the US Constitution? There are no social benefits to restricting religious practice. Preventing religion and politics influencing each other is one thing (and a thing the US has done rather well), but going so far as to restrict religious practice and using the power of the state to do so (as we have seen happen in France recently) will threaten the civil-religious fabric of the USA and most likely see it become increasingly divided along religious lines.

Fundamentalist Christians are already threatening the social fabric of the U.S by using the free exercise clause as a shield to justify their attempts at hijacking the politics of this country. There must be a push-back against their attempts in order to safeguard the secular character of the republic. The free exercise clause was never meant to be used as a tool to turn this country into a right-wing jesus wonderland.

[Made in the USA]

(Original post by Maker)
True, Britain was very good in using its religion to further is colonial expansion.

I would even go as far as saying that religious influence made it more powerful, no less powerful

Still, China will be overtaking the US in around 30 years and the Chinese are mostly atheist with a few Christians and Buddhists.

I think the religiousness of America will accelerate its declined because it ignores science when it conflicts with religion such as global warming and genetic and biological sciences and down grades science education by teaching creationism.

Nonsense. The bible belt is a relatively small, relatively unpopulated portion of the US. The only reason they matter is because of the electoral college, so you hear politicians pandering to evangelical christians when it is time for an election. Other than that, their influence is zero. The US leads the world in technology and science and that doesn't appear to be changing anytime soon

[Made in the USA]

(Original post by ExMuslim)
If we liberals have our way, yes we do indeed intend to expel religion totally from public life. We make no secret of this. It really depends on the make-up of the supreme court. I hope Obama wins the next election so we can appoint more liberal justices heh. But if Romney wins, I suspect that religion will creep back into American schools and all areas of government. What a terrible fate that would be.

That doesn't make any sense. He has been governor of MA before and there is nothing in his record that shows that he let religion creep anywhere. Romney hates talking about religion.

[ExMuslim]

(Original post by Made in the USA)
That doesn't make any sense. He has been governor of MA before and there is nothing in his record that shows that he let religion creep anywhere. Romney hates talking about religion.

Being governor and President is not the same thing. Governors don't appoint people to the SCOTUS. Romney is trying to get elected by pandering to the evangelicals. And if he does manage to get a term as President, he will probably appoint highly conservative people to the Supreme Court because if he doesn't the evangelicals will punish him when he's trying to get reelected. Taking control of the Supreme Court and reversing Roe v. Wade is one of the most important things for the conservative right.

[miser]

It's powerful because it's rich I suppose. Religiosity there is declining though - between 10% and 20% of the population are non-religious already.

[Maker]

The religious Right is always trying to screw with the Constitution by sneaking Creationism into schools and trying to get around R Vs. W.

Arizona is trying to stop State funding of clinics that provide abortion advice and abortions as well as general health care.

You can't trust the RR because they are like any fundamentalist in believing the ends justify the means and anything they do, however dishonest or evil must be good because they have god on their side.

[Llamageddon]

(Original post by najinaji)
Your debating skills leave much to be desired.

Also, all I said was that believing in something without any evidence is, by the very definition, unintelligent. And preferably, I would like to live in a world where most people are reasonably intelligent. I know that that is not the case now (and may not be the case for some time, or perhaps ever), but I think that religion holds a lot of people back who may otherwise have had the ability to think freely.

Compared to what?

In comparison to every other species on the planet the vast majority of humans are more than reasonably intelligent. In comparison to ourselves the average person is... average.

[Thisiszackary]

As someone from the American South (Louisiana), I can say it isn't a "South dragging down the rest of the country" problem. It's much more of a rural vs urban problem.

Urban areas in the South (New Orleans, Atlanta, Houston) are much better off intellectually than the poorer, more rural areas. Same thing goes in the North. Upstate NY is waaaay more conservative than NYC.

[vvbox]

it's powerful because of political reason. Also because imigrants