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Any tories supporting Scottish independence??

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    There must be lots of tories out there wondering if Labour would ever get back into power is Scotland became independent?

    Think about it, 45? less Labour seats..

    If Wales went too, that'd be, another 30? Labour seats?

    England could be a proper traditional conservative country again and we could sort out this mess caused by Labour....
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    Often thought about this, but still think we're better as one nation.
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    (Original post by billydisco)
    There must be lots of tories out there wondering if Labour would ever get back into power is Scotland became independent?

    Think about it, 45? less Labour seats..

    If Wales went too, that'd be, another 30? Labour seats?

    England could be a proper traditional conservative country again and we could sort out this mess caused by Labour....
    But here's the thing, in 1997 England had mostly Labour MPs if I'm not mistaken? Labour can 'win' in England provided it copies the Conservative party.

    Although your theory I shall accept for Scotland for very obvious reasons...
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    (Original post by Stanley Baldwin)
    But here's the thing, in 1997 England had mostly Labour MPs if I'm not mistaken? Labour can 'win' in England provided it copies the Conservative party.

    Although your theory I shall accept for Scotland for very obvious reasons...
    That was more about incompetence. I knew someone who was an investment banker and he even voted for Tony Blair. He said at the time you just knew Major had to go...
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    I would support a English devolved parliament to be the same as the Scottish government and Welsh Assembly etc. They would be able to have the power to accept or amend the laws created by Westminster and enforce them how they want to.

    Local councils also have more power.
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    (Original post by MacCuishy)
    I would support a English devolved parliament to be the same as the Scottish government and Welsh Assembly etc. They would be able to have the power to accept or amend the laws created by Westminster and enforce them how they want to.

    Local councils also have more power.
    But you're missing the point, no Scottish MPs completely screws Labour bigtime.....

    It's not the power thing, its the fact Labour/socialism destroys England.
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    It's called the Conservative and Unionist Party for a reason.
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    I really don't think we should rip the country apart so the Tories can dominate for a decade or so before Labour just lurch to the right.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    I really don't think we should rip the country apart so the Tories can dominate for a decade or so before Labour just lurch to the right.
    Labour isn't reliant on the Scottish constituencies in the general election, whenever they've won they've never needed the Scottish vote anyway. If there is independence (unlikely) then the SNP (a populist left wing party) will most likely dominate and do a very good job at running the country, this will intice a populist left wing party in Britain to establish itself which could very quickly become popular overtaking the likes of UKIP and competing with the Lib Dems - possibly becoming the new Lib Dems. Look at Melenchon coming out of nowhere in France and George Galloway's populist left wing message in Bradford. If you had a half decent party to replace the Lib Dems they'd do very well indeed. They'd need to pander to the anti-EU/anti-austerity crowd.
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    I am not a tory but I am conservative, I don't care whether Scotland becomes independent or not will it affect my tax rates or my earnings? Probably not.
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    I'm not tory, I do still support the Scottish to have their independence, in fact it doesn't even bother me when Scots say "I'm Scottish not British" the same way I say "I'm English not British", I feel the word British is meaningless now as anyone can claim to be British.
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    It's worth noting that the SNP grew out of the Tory Party. Initially there were campaigns to ensure Scotland got the same deal as Ireland within the Union, then there were some who advocated Home Rule within the British Empire (essentially dominion status) - it was only around the 1930s that there were noticeable Scottish nationalists advocating independent statehood.

    Oddly enough, many of the SNP's electoral heartlands in the rural areas are former Tory seats. Rather out of step with the SNP's left-wing message.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    It's worth noting that the SNP grew out of the Tory Party. Initially there were campaigns to ensure Scotland got the same deal as Ireland within the Union, then there were some who advocated Home Rule within the British Empire (essentially dominion status) - it was only around the 1930s that there were noticeable Scottish nationalists advocating independent statehood.

    Oddly enough, many of the SNP's electoral heartlands in the rural areas are former Tory seats. Rather out of step with the SNP's left-wing message.
    That's actually one of the most interesting posts ive read on here!
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    (Original post by billydisco)
    That's actually one of the most interesting posts ive read on here!
    I think the National Association for the Vindication of Scottish Rights in the 1850s was the first significant body calling for constitutional change, but it was more about a 'fair deal' for Scotland than anything more - as a result of the Liberals focus on Ireland at the time. Given that Scotland was fairly anti-Catholic at the time, it may well have been more a 'we deserve better than Ireland' front - one of their policies, for example, was to have the country's name changed from the UK of GB and Ireland to just 'Great Britain'.

    It was around that time that there started to be movements towards creating a Scottish Secretary in the government. There had been a post-union Scottish Secretary in the government, but it died out in the mid-18th century. It was eventually restored in 1886 and ever since the Scottish Office gained more and more administrative powers. Eventually when things like the NHS were created, the Scottish Office had almost entire responsibility for their functions north of the border.

    Once you start that administrative devolution process, some sort of Scottish parliament was really quite logical. So as much as I like to rant about it and complain that it gave the SNP a platform, the Scottish Parliament was the almost-inevitable outcome of decisions made long ago both by Tories and Liberals in Westminster.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    It's worth noting that the SNP grew out of the Tory Party. Initially there were campaigns to ensure Scotland got the same deal as Ireland within the Union, then there were some who advocated Home Rule within the British Empire (essentially dominion status) - it was only around the 1930s that there were noticeable Scottish nationalists advocating independent statehood.

    Oddly enough, many of the SNP's electoral heartlands in the rural areas are former Tory seats. Rather out of step with the SNP's left-wing message.
    Really? What was the level of interest in this?

    I was always under the impression that during the period Ireland was part of the UK, the Scots were fanatically pro Britain - united by protestantism, monarchy and empire. Sort of the high water mark of "Britishness" in Scotland if you like?
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    (Original post by Dubliner)
    Really? What was the level of interest in this?

    I was always under the impression that during the period Ireland was part of the UK, the Scots were fanatically pro Britain - united by protestantism, monarchy and empire. Sort of the high water mark of "Britishness" in Scotland if you like?
    Yeah, I think it was a Home Rule with Britishness rather than one, as in Ireland, which rejected that identity. In that era, I suppose you could see colonies gaining greater autonomy whilst remaining loyal to the Crown and still seeing themselves as part of a wider British Empire rather than just a United Kingdom.

    In the 1880s there was a Scottish Home Rule Association which gained backing from the proto-Labour socialists and some Liberals. Apparently it came up countless times in Parliament, but no-one really had the commitment to do anything about it. Then, as Ireland experienced, the First World War took everything of that nature off the immediate agenda.

    It's hard to say exactly what popular support was like. There were plenty of figures who liked the idea. Obviously we're talking about a time before universal suffrage, but there were plenty of MPs from Scotland who ostensibly supported the idea. It was only by the time of the National Covenant in the 1950s that we saw a popular motion towards devolution - it got 2 million signatures in a population of 5 million.

    Oddly enough though, it was the 1955 general election where 'Tories' (ie, the Unionist Party as it was then and a smattering of Liberal Unionists etc) received 55% of the popular vote in Scotland - the only time over half of Scotland's voters have backed one movement.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    It's worth noting that the SNP grew out of the Tory Party. Initially there were campaigns to ensure Scotland got the same deal as Ireland within the Union, then there were some who advocated Home Rule within the British Empire (essentially dominion status) - it was only around the 1930s that there were noticeable Scottish nationalists advocating independent statehood.

    Oddly enough, many of the SNP's electoral heartlands in the rural areas are former Tory seats. Rather out of step with the SNP's left-wing message.
    The SNP actually developed as a single entity from a merger of the National Party of Scotland and the Scottish Party in the 1930s. The Scottish Party was formed by members of the Unionist Party (same party that merged with the Conservatives to make the modern Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party) who favoured dominion status for Scotland, so interestingly, the SNP can claim distant Unionist heritage.

    There also seem to be Scottish Tories that support independence (bizarrely). According to a yougov pol mentioned in this article in the Scotsman: "http://www.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/politics/scottish-independence-labour-voters-will-deliver-independence-1-2320830", 6% of Conservative and Unionist Party voters favour independence. Isn't that quite astounding?
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    (Original post by Osmond)
    the Unionist Party (same party that merged with the Conservatives to make the modern Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party)
    You make it sound like the name of the C&U Party is as a result of that merger (which was more a change of branding really). That was in the 1960s - but the Conservatives were the Conservative and Unionist Party since 1912 due to the merger with the Liberal Unionists.

    In reality, the Scottish lot just imported the name of the UK-wide party.

    There also seem to be Scottish Tories that support independence (bizarrely). According to a yougov pol mentioned in this article in the Scotsman: "http://www.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/politics/scottish-independence-labour-voters-will-deliver-independence-1-2320830", 6% of Conservative and Unionist Party voters favour independence. Isn't that quite astounding?
    I don't see it as that bizarre really: there's always going to be right-wingers who support Scottish independence. I think they're hideously misguided, but the thinking is that a dose of responsibility will turn Scotland to the right again and enable it to essentially operate as a small, low-tax economy like the pre-crisis Irish Republic. There are a couple of MSPs in the SNP who could be identified as reasonably Tory-minded.

    What's more baffling to me are the 40-odd percent of SNP voters who are against Scottish independence. To me that seems to be dancing with the Devil and hoping one doesn't get burnt. I can only assume these are people who see parties, particularly Labour, as having been pretty incompetent recently and turned to the SNP more or less as a second choice until the others can improve.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    and enable it to essentially operate as a small, low-tax economy like the pre-crisis Irish Republic.
    This is what I don't understand about the SNP. They seem to be selling a Scandinavian model for Scotland, whilst their economic policies are very right wing and favourable to corporations. They talk about emulating Norway, but in Norway people pay huge taxes (something like upwards to 67% income tax) in order to receive the big public spending in Norway, and for things like the oil fund. I don't understand why Salmond linked Ireland and Norway in his "arc of prosperity" they are radically different countries regards the economic direction they have taken.
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    (Original post by L i b)

    What's more baffling to me are the 40-odd percent of SNP voters who are against Scottish independence. To me that seems to be dancing with the Devil and hoping one doesn't get burnt. I can only assume these are people who see parties, particularly Labour, as having been pretty incompetent recently and turned to the SNP more or less as a second choice until the others can improve.
    No. That isn't really correct. The number of SNP voters who are against independence is running (apparently) at 28%. However, only 58% support it outright. This means that 14% don't seem to know. It is inappropriate to say from those YouGov figures that 40-odd % are against independence, when we only know for certain (according to YouGov) that 28% are against.

    The reason why I was so surprised was that some people voting for the Conservative and Unionist Party actually support independence, despite supporting a party that is meant to be "Unionist to the core", but I suppose that's just the same as being against independence and supporting the SNP.

    It would also be inappropriate to try and guess where that 14% is going to swing to, because we all know that what happens over the next two years will be very difficult to predict - the success of the Yes Campaign will depend on the ineptitude of the "Yes UK" Campaign, the success of the community-based Yes campaign (with all the ambassadors and such), but most importantly the success of the SNP in adapting to the future economic situation. If the Euro comes back stronger than before, the SNP could advocate joining the Euro. If the Euro flops and countries start adopting their own currencies, the SNP could advocate a Scottish Pound or something along those lines, because at least then it would be "normal" to adopt own currency in Europe. We can be fairly sure that at least one of those outcomes will happen, so if they postpone the difficult questions about the monetary policy (which many members of the SNP don't seem to be able to answer), they could be alright.

    I don't know why you're baffled by it, I would say most people voted for the SNP because they believed they were competent in government. It just so happened that 58% of those people also agree with independence (I'm quite pleased that they do - a majority of SNP voters support independence, despite the worries we had last year. It could be a bigger majority, yes, but this'll do). I predict that if the Yes Campaign lose the referendum and the SNP have to withstand a general election, they will have a disappointing result for having shown who they truly were - a pro-independence party, concerned with big scary ideas like independence. Suddenly Labour, which has been out of power for quite a while up here, looks like such a fresh new idea.

    I also like all this emotive language - comparing the SNP to Satan himself. How mature and witty.

    (Original post by Dubliner)
    This is what I don't understand about the SNP. They seem to be selling a Scandinavian model for Scotland, whilst their economic policies are very right wing and favourable to corporations. They talk about emulating Norway, but in Norway people pay huge taxes (something like upwards to 67% income tax) in order to receive the big public spending in Norway, and for things like the oil fund. I don't understand why Salmond linked Ireland and Norway in his "arc of prosperity" they are radically different countries regards the economic direction they have taken.
    To be successful, the SNP have become rather good at pleasing everyone - lefties, right wingers, capitalists, all sorts. Like most political parties today, this means that they sometimes have to say self-contradictory things like this in order to secure a decent vote in their favour. Believe me, the SNP are charmers and will try to charm everyone one way or another. They have to, they've got a bloody independence referendum to win in a country that doesn't fully support independence (yet).

    In any case, one doesn't really need to worry too much about the SNP's post-independence plans, because we will have several alternative forms of Scottish independence available post-referendum. According to Stewart Hosie MSP, the first General Election following the referendum, rather than having us vote for parties in Westminster, will have voters choose between the different forms of independence put forward by the Greens, the SSP and the SNP (I don't know if we'll see others). For example, the SSP will be likely to offer a socialist republic of Scotland, which is in contrast with the SNP's monarchist, pro-business Scotland.

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