[Indo-Chinese Food]

Pyramid scheme being one that the orignator gains more and more membership by stating that each member will receive a reward for recruiting each new member they recruit.

Effectively this is what mohammed had set up - not only does each convert to islam automatically get all their sins slate wiped clean simply for converting , they are also rewarded for each additional non muslim they can convince to convert to islam (known as spreading dawa) The system is proven one shown to maximise increased membership over time.

did mohammed really invent this principle?

[Darth Stewie]

No, the Egyptians did.

Spoiler:

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[Maker]

Every religion is a pyramid scheme. The best part is if it doesn't pay out, you can't complain.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Darth Stewie)
No, the Egyptians did.

Spoiler:

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youre over a month late for that lad. youd better brace yourself for a fatwa

[Tpos]

People don't invite others into Islam to gain reward (or at least that's not the main reason) dawah is a duty upon every Muslim. Dawah doesn't need to be done explicity either - non-Muslims will see Muslims doing things which are soley associated with us and this will be a form of dawah.

Islam says to love for others what you love for yourself and for Muslims, Islam is what we love the most. It is our way of life and it is what we believe will gain success both in this life and the after-life therefore to show love towards others we should guide people towards Islam.

I may have gone off topic...

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Tpos)
People don't invite others into Islam to gain reward (or at least that's not the main reason) dawah is a duty upon every Muslim. Dawah doesn't need to be done explicity either - non-Muslims will see Muslims doing things which are soley associated with us and this will be a form of dawah.

Islam says to love for others what you love for yourself and for Muslims, Islam is what we love the most. It is our way of life and it is what we believe will gain success both in this life and the after-life therefore to show love towards others we should guide people towards Islam.

I may have gone off topic...

Yes true it is duty, but there is a specific reward given for those who convert non-msulims, and this is exponential to the numbers of people you do convert, This is the very basis of the pyramid scheme.
i would be interested if someone can tell me what the reward actually is

[Tpos]

The reward is the same as doing any other good deed!

[Dirac Delta Function]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
Pyramid scheme being one that the orignator gains more and more membership by stating that each member will receive a reward for recruiting each new member they recruit.

Effectively this is what mohammed had set up - not only does each convert to islam automatically get all their sins slate wiped clean simply for converting , they are also rewarded for each additional non muslim they can convince to convert to islam (known as spreading dawa) The system is proven one shown to maximise increased membership over time.

did mohammed really invent this principle?

didn't Christians already have this?

[.eXe]

(Original post by Dirac Delta Function)
didn't Christians already have this?

Christians have no reward for converting others to the faith. We dont go to heaven and get bonus points depending on the number of people we convert. So no, christians dont have this. Notice indo is stressing the "reward" aspect of the scheme. The promise of a reward is central to a ponzi scheme and this only exists in islam


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[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Dirac Delta Function)
didn't Christians already have this?

iwas going to say much what .exe has already said.

i was examining the principle that mohammed was the first to formalise the pyramid scheme arrangment long beforre charles ponzi

[TheHansa]

A lot of people here (I'm looking at you .exe) don't know what a ponzi scheme is

[.eXe]

(Original post by TheHansa)
A lot of people here (I'm looking at you .exe) don't know what a ponzi scheme is

Okay, I'll give you a chance to explain what is wrong with my understanding of a ponzi scheme. Make sure you give examples from stuff I have said. Don't assume what you think I know.

From this wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

Quote: "The Ponzi scheme usually entices new investors by offering higher returns than other investments"

I believe the above bolded is called a "reward", which is the point I made in my prior post about Christians.

[TheHansa]

(Original post by .eXe)
Okay, I'll give you a chance to explain what is wrong with my understanding of a ponzi scheme. Make sure you give examples from stuff I have said. Don't assume what you think I know.

An Italian named Charles Ponzi utilised a scam whereby 'investors' would be paid a small but regular amount of money taken from future investors, obviously such a scheme breaks down because the supply of potental future investors is finite.

Islam being a religion believes that the promised reward comes from God, rather than future converts (which is why it isn't a Ponzi scheme) obviously by definition his capacity to reward in not finite, so within the framework of Islam it cannot be a scam.

[.eXe]

(Original post by TheHansa)
An Italian named Charles Ponzi utilised a scam whereby 'investors' would be paid a small but regular amount of money taken from future investors, obviously such a scheme breaks down because the supply of potental future investors is finite.

Islam being a religion believes that the promised reward comes from God, rather than future converts (which is why it isn't a Ponzi scheme) obviously by definition his capacity to reward in not finite, so within the framework of Islam it cannot be a scam.

Indo is examining the theme of a ponzi scheme. It doesn't really matter WHERE the reward comes from. Rather, it's the fact that a reward is offered that is in question here.

[TheHansa]

(Original post by .eXe)
Indo is examining the theme of a ponzi scheme. It doesn't really matter WHERE the reward comes from. Rather, it's the fact that a reward is offered that is in question here.

It kinda does matter.

If a person is offering a sustainable investment scheme offering regular payouts of greater value than the money invested over a period of time, in return for the initial money the investor put in, it isn't a Ponzi scheme.

[.eXe]

(Original post by TheHansa)
It kinda does matter.

If a person is offering a sustainable investment scheme offering regular payouts of greater value than the money invested over a period of time, in return for the initial money the investor put in, it isn't a Ponzi scheme.

Stop arguing gibberish kid, comparisons don't have to be 100% literal. You can compare themes, while ignoring the specifics of something.

For example, I can compare a dog and an elephant as 2 creatures with 4 legs. It doesn't really matter that only one of them has a trunk and the other doesn't We're comparing broad themes. Is this seriously your argument.....?

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by TheHansa)
An Italian named Charles Ponzi utilised a scam whereby 'investors' would be paid a small but regular amount of money taken from future investors, obviously such a scheme breaks down because the supply of potental future investors is finite.

Islam being a religion believes that the promised reward comes from God, rather than future converts (which is why it isn't a Ponzi scheme) obviously by definition his capacity to reward in not finite, so within the framework of Islam it cannot be a scam.

(Original post by .eXe)
Indo is examining the theme of a ponzi scheme. It doesn't really matter WHERE the reward comes from. Rather, it's the fact that a reward is offered that is in question here.

Yes in the typical case of a pyramid scheme the added profit or reward doesnt come directly from the additional member , it comes from their additional profit -ie the market.
in realtion to islam, introducing a new member to islam entitles you to an additional post-death 'reward' ( inadvertently, it also increases income stream for central islamic bodies in terms of zakat etc too)

[Dirac Delta Function]

Trying to tie this Islamic reward system to a Ponzi scheme is futile. The reward comes from God, not from other "investors" (ie, converts), and God doesn't run out of points.

This thread, in short, is a waste of time, except to note that Muhammad's system of incentivising proselytism by making it an investment was extremely effective. Islam plays on the fundamental selfish nature of people and works it to its advantage. That's why when you give to charity, for example, you are not losing money, you are investing it in the afterlife, which has an infinite ROI.

[TheHansa]

(Original post by .eXe)
Stop arguing gibberish kid, comparisons don't have to be 100% literal. You can compare themes, while ignoring the specifics of something.

For example, I can compare a dog and an elephant as 2 creatures with 4 legs. It doesn't really matter that only one of them has a trunk and the other doesn't We're comparing broad themes. Is this seriously your argument.....?

What I said is 100% true and you know it


The comparison is wrong because you're comparing a religion with a scheme where the person who sets up the schemes knows it cannot work, knows that it will hurt people but does it anyway for personal gain.

[.eXe]

(Original post by TheHansa)
What I said is 100% true and you know it


The comparison is wrong because your comparing a religion with a scheme where the person who sets up the schemes knows it cannot work, knows that it will hurt people but does it anyway for personal gain.

What you said is 100% true factually. I know that the scheme was devised by Charles Ponzi and all that. I am not arguing that. What I am debating is your claim that the comparison is wrong.

As I explained in my example, the comparison is of a theme rather than of facts. I am truly perplexed that you do not understand something so simple. Did you at least understand my example or do you think I am wrong in comparing a dog to an elephant?

Also, you do not know what Mohammad's intent was. Maybe his intent was to screw people over, you cannot defend him because you did not know him and his views personally. If his actions are any evidence, Mohammad was a warrior hell-bent on taking over other tribes and assimilating people. But I assume this is not the Mohammad you know eh?