[Polygoof]

(Original post by sammy-lou)
Maybe not today, but what about a few hundred years down the line? People have been at war for as long they lived in societies, and that's what I mean by people not learning from mistakes of the past. We continue to fight one another - it's just part of the human condition.

No excuses from history and biology. We can create mechanisms to stop them, or to continue them.

How? Education. And making changes in deep-wired notions among society. I think, for instance, by teaching kids that war is bad and conflicts can be solved through other methods. Education.

You know, during WW2 and even before that, they used to glorify war in kids' cartoons?

That needs to be reduced, even if very little remains today. It should be abolished.

It would be perfectly possible if there were less cynics around the block

P.S.: I found it disgusting how the British armed forces advertise using social media, Facebook. Kids see that. Kids are encouraged to see the world as a violent place and prepare for it, instead of working towards changing it.

Self-fulfilling prophecies. Man, on Facebook.

Long live Assange!

[Polygoof]

(Original post by bahjat93)
Because currently we see each other as aliens .
An example would be the Americans see the Mexicans as aliens

And yet, that merely represents the ignorant majority (which is why, BTW, I don't even believe in democracy where the wisdom and education of voters is unequal).

There are numerous families built on American-Mexican union.

[Polygoof]

(Original post by bahjat93)
You are some Hippie!!
Cowboys vs Aliens was an amazing film dude!!

The film sums up your idea:
Different rival factions on Earth who form alliance against alien invasion.

Now, even if we don't KNOW whether there are aliens yet, the very idea that they might pose a threat to Earth should convince the politicians to collaborate and focus on external threats rather than waste resources on trivial land conflicts.

But even if not, people still vote for politicians who are unable to bring peace.

I think we are all accountable for such things.

[Dorito]

Soldiers are not heroes, they can act heroically but then again so can the average man on the street given the opportunity.

They choose the job and the lifestyle that goes with being a soldier. I have respect for people that serve in the army but I also have respect for people that do other difficult jobs, like surgeons.

Why should we reserve such special praise for soldiers for doing the job they are paid to do?

[Libertarian_Walrus]

"Lots of people who complained about us receiving the MBE received theirs for heroism in the war --for killing people. We received ours for entertaining other people. I'd say we deserve ours more." - John Lennon

[Polygoof]

(Original post by Addzter)
Soldiers are only pawns in a game they have no influence over. They join up because of the sense of pride and duty that being a soldier bestows upon them, not because they're murderers looking for a legitimate way to sate their bloodlust.

Idk, I'm anti-war ( ) but it still makes me uneasy when people criticise soldiers. At the very least, their hearts are in the right place, and they believe they're laying their lives on the line for the good of their country.

Perhaps the word "murderer" was wrong; "selfish", perhaps, is more appropriate in this case. Selfish in the sense that they are defending only their own country, rather than thinking about the bigger picture.

I cannot sympathize with those who lay their lives on the line for the good of their own country, but thereby forget to consider the other side. Do they not have a mind, or a conscience?

Especially nowadays, they shouldn't be blind puppets without freedom of thought and expression. Why would they submit to a mini-dictatorship of command?

[Leon Trotsky]

(Original post by Polygoof)
Perhaps the word "murderer" was wrong; "selfish", perhaps, is more appropriate in this case. Selfish in the sense that they are defending only their own country, rather than thinking about the bigger picture.

I cannot sympathize with those who lay their lives on the line for the good of their own country, but thereby forget to consider the other side. Do they not have a mind, or a conscience?

Especially nowadays, they shouldn't be blind puppets without freedom of thought and expression. Why would they submit to a mini-dictatorship of command?

I don't think any soldier rationalises what they do the way you just did. I imagine they think that they're doing their bit to combat evil or to ensure the freedom of others.

Do you think there's such a thing as a just war? Soldiers - or at least the majority of soldiers, I hope - think they're fighting a just war.

[sammy-lou]

(Original post by Polygoof)
No excuses from history and biology. We can create mechanisms to stop them, or to continue them.

How? Education. And making changes in deep-wired notions among society. I think, for instance, by teaching kids that war is bad and conflicts can be solved through other methods. Education.

You know, during WW2 and even before that, they used to glorify war in kids' cartoons?

That needs to be reduced, even if very little remains today. It should be abolished.

It would be perfectly possible if there were less cynics around the block

P.S.: I found it disgusting how the British armed forces advertise using social media, Facebook. Kids see that. Kids are encouraged to see the world as a violent place and prepare for it, instead of working towards changing it.

Self-fulfilling prophecies. Man, on Facebook.

Long live Assange!

I agree with what you're saying about education - and I think that if it were put in to practice it would work. When you consider that education hasn't been such an integral part of society for very long at all, it is perfectly reasonable to think that - in our society - that sort of thing would work.

The flaw in that plan, however, is that teaching OUR kids that 'war is wrong', the kids who have access to facebook etc, is all very well and good, but how is that going to change attitudes in developing countries where they don't have the benefit of established education that we have? Most importantly - these developing countries are the ones that are often still finding their feet politically, and are more at risk of falling in to war.

Yes - I am a cynic when it comes to this. It's war, it's perfectly reasonable to question whether we would ever just 'do away with it'.

Oh, and the part that I bolded: are you referring to propaganda? Because no one is arguing in favour of that. If you want to talk about the glorification of war, then fine, because that's actually still going on today. Why else do war films and video games sell so well? Please don't think me in favour of war, because I'm not. I think it's a terrible, cruel, base method of control - one that humans, in all our 'intelligence', should have found a way around by now. But despite all of that, I don't for one second think that the individual soldier is to blame for this, no more than the average man or woman on the street. I know it's a phrase that's been littered around this whole thread, but they are just doing their job.

[Time Tourist]

Our country has been unconquered for almost 1000 years... yet enough people have tried... didn't happen by magic.

[Polygoof]

(Original post by sammy-lou)
I know it's a phrase that's been littered around this whole thread, but they are just doing their job.

I empathize with everything you said above.

But I wish to add that, were people more conscious of what they were doing, they should take initiative and quit such job.

Just because a job exists doesn't make it alright to exist.

[Polygoof]

(Original post by Addzter)
I don't think any soldier rationalises what they do the way you just did. I imagine they think that they're doing their bit to combat evil or to ensure the freedom of others.

Do you think there's such a thing as a just war? Soldiers - or at least the majority of soldiers, I hope - think they're fighting a just war.

But I assume that EVERYONE thinks they are doing the right thing, including criminal murderers.

However, do you think everyone is right?

Someone has to be wrong, or we live in an anarchy of relativist morals.

[Polygoof]

(Original post by sammy-lou)
[...] teaching OUR kids that 'war is wrong', the kids who have access to facebook etc, is all very well and good, but how is that going to change attitudes in developing countries where they don't have the benefit of established education that we have?

Leading by example.

Do foreign populations push their despots to become freer societies because the West forced them to, or because they saw the success of the West in certain matters?

[Drewski]

(Original post by Polygoof)
But I assume that EVERYONE thinks they are doing the right thing, including criminal murderers.

However, do you think everyone is right?

Someone has to be wrong, or we live in an anarchy of relativist morals.

Then you're making some pretty mental and idiotic assumptions. I'm sure there's the odd few criminals who think what they're doing is right, but the larger number are doing it because they feel they need to, not because it's right.


I've just read through this thread, you don't want a discussion, you just want people to agree with you. Read this: they don't. Your arguments aren't going to change that, and sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting them down isn't going to stop that either.

[Polygoof]

(Original post by Drewski)
Then you're making some pretty mental and idiotic assumptions. I'm sure there's the odd few criminals who think what they're doing is right, but the larger number are doing it because they feel they need to, not because it's right.


I've just read through this thread, you don't want a discussion, you just want people to agree with you. Read this: they don't. Your arguments aren't going to change that, and sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting them down isn't going to stop that either.

I don't see how your post contributes with any argument to the discussion.

But indeed I am more and more surprised to witness how the opinions I have formed as I have grown up are in starker contrast to that of the mainstream.

[Polygoof]

(Original post by Time Tourist)
Our country has been unconquered for almost 1000 years... yet enough people have tried... didn't happen by magic.

As I mentioned in the original post, though, I wasn't referring to any specific country.

[sammy-lou]

(Original post by Polygoof)
I empathize with everything you said above.

But I wish to add that, were people more conscious of what they were doing, they should take initiative and quit such job.

Just because a job exists doesn't make it alright to exist.

Yes, and I think in an ideal world it would be possible to do that. Unfortunately, because it is a job at the end of the day, people can't necessarily just throw in the towel and quit their job, because they need money.

There's also the fact that maybe they don't have a moral or rational objection to the war (or in fact they support it) so they are well within their rights to continue fighting if they want to. Don't forget that the job of the military is not solely to fight and kill - they also serve numerous other roles: protection, providing aid, education.

(Original post by Polygoof)
Leading by example.

Do foreign populations push their despots to become freer societies because the West forced them to, or because they saw the success of the West in certain matters?

^ that's a valid point and I accept that.

[Drewski]

(Original post by Polygoof)
I don't see how your post contributes with any argument to the discussion.

Neither have any of yours. You just repeat the same shtick and then wwhen people counter it you ignore it. So why should I bother? it's clear you have your frame of mind and won't be swayed on it, no matter what the argument, it'd be a waste of my time, you don't want to hear it. The insane hyperbole about defecating on war memorials says it all, you haven't got a clue and are just a bigot.


Or, more likely, just a troll. Night night

[dobbs]

(Original post by Drewski)

I've just read through this thread, you don't want a discussion, you just want people to agree with you. Read this: they don't. Your arguments aren't going to change that, and sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting them down isn't going to stop that either.

I'm glad that you said this - reading through I completely agree with you, the OP is not looking for a discussion, all his posts are simply questioning and picking apart anything that anyone says.

Then he goes and posts that post that is a few above this one - just looking to wind people up and get a response from it

There's one thing 'not agreeing' with soldiers and what they do and whether they deserve the respect and glorification, but going out and destroying war memorials or poppy displays etc. is another thing altogether and you won't win many supporters with that sort of attitude or behaviour.

EDIT: I have to point out that the post I mention (bolded) has now been edited by him, and mentioned that he wanted to go out and (I quote) "defecate on war memorials". He has now removed this, clever boy, but just to point out that this is something that he did say.

[Polygoof]

(Original post by sammy-lou)
Yes, and I think in an ideal world it would be possible to do that. Unfortunately, because it is a job at the end of the day, people can't necessarily just throw in the towel and quit their job, because they need money.

And that's what also other groups do: criminals, the mafia, and so on.

There's also the fact that maybe they don't have a moral or rational objection to the war (or in fact they support it) so they are well within their rights to continue fighting if they want to. Don't forget that the job of the military is not solely to fight and kill - they also serve numerous other roles: protection, providing aid, education.

I don't understand the underlined part.

Are you saying they have the right to fight (and kill) just because they believe in their cause? Even if that cause is against mine (or against, say, a better world without wars)?

Wouldn't that argument allow anyone to just go around killing and doing whatever they want, just because they believe in what they do?

[Jakebrown]

I think the reasons that soldiers are glorified are because at the end of the day, they do a job that requires them to be at the peak of their physical and mental fitness and they protect the citizens of their country from various threats. As well as providing support to other countries!
Of course, they may have to kill other humans but if one person's death means saving a thousand others, I think it should be justified.