[VeggieGirl]

Hiya

Just wondering what people's views were about the two topics corresponding? I am a vegetarian, have been ever since I can remember, and am hoping to apply for veterinary in the autumn. The foremost reason I believe I am vegetarian is to do with animal suffering; I do not believe animals should suffer and (this will probably spark off something!) but I don't think it is natural for any animal to be born to be killed. I am hypocritical I know as at the moment I eat dairy/cheese etc. and am hoping to cut them out when I leave home. I also believe the farming industry has made a massive impact on our planet as a whole, destroying the world's natural environment and using resources which could probably be more sensibly used.

I have had different views from people concerning the two; vets seem to ask the question 'why be a vegetarian, when you can just eat meat from free range farms', and then for vets people have asked 'why aren't you a vegetarian, if you aim to combat animal suffering'.

Anyone else ever come across the same questions? Please be as blunt as you like - I know it's annoying when people say 'I'm a vegetarian!' and think so highly of themselves because they believe they are doing good, but I truly believe that one person can make a difference.
I must say I am tied up about the two subjects and am worried I am making a huge mistake about going into a field where the very thing I am trying to combat I am helping to thrive :/

[Pawsies]

To believe the farming industry contributes significantly to destroying the planet won't get you far with farmers. If you want to work with livestock animals I'd keep that to yourself!

[Phoenix_147]

I am starting vet school in September, I also have a degree in animal welfare and eat meat.
In my opinion vets are in a BETTER position to make decsions about eating meat. They actually see the systems and are actively a part in them. As a vet you would not be able to escape treating farm animals that are being raised for meat, especially intensively reared ones.
However vets do have some part in improving the systems. Granted you wont change a lot of farmers minds about switching their farrowing crates for beautiful airy barns but you could set up a herd health plan to combat lameness in dairy cattle or recommend a higher energy content feed for broilers that are underweight.

Within your training you would have a lot of exposure to meat/production animals and perhaps thats something you do not wantt o be associated with because of your strong views. I would also ask myself could I also deal with putting down a relatively healthy cat because the owners dont want to pay for its care.

Theres a lot of animal injustice, not just in the meat trade. You need to decide (and get experience with current vets) to see how the job may conflict with your views. No matter how much you want to be a vet, if you cant morally commit you wont ever be happy

[schizopear]

i was a vegetarian for about 10 years for ethical reasons but am now quite happy to eat meat that has been reared humanely. i had a bit of vegetarian guilt when i first started eating meat again but my work experience on farms has led me to believe that, providing the welfare is of a high standard, there is nothing wrong with eating meat/dairy/eggs

not aimed at you, but i really hate the strict vegetarian/vegan agenda that some people/organisations have. i believe that, irrespective of your own personal choices about eating meat, the best way to improve animal welfare is not to ostracise meat eaters/producers but to encourage improvements within the meat industry so that those that choose to eat meat can eat high welfare meat.

[superhan]

This issue comes up a lot in the veterinary field i suppose, I'm starting vetmed at RVC this September (grades conditional..) and have also worked at a vet practice for about 4 years, and it's something i think about occasionally.

I think it's important to prevent animal suffering and promote good welfare, which is why I make sure what meat I buy is from high welfare farms.

I think (only my opinion) that if you're a vegetarian you're making less of a difference to animal welfare within farming, by buying high welfare meat you support the farmers which are ensuring great standards of living for the animal.

As a vegetarian you are neither supporting the low welfare farm or the high welfare, but does that make a difference to improving animal welfare?

One person who doesn't eat meat won't prevent animals being farmed for food, millions if not billions of people eat meat throughout the world, surely ensuring that you support the farms that have the highest welfare standards (free range, living as close to a natural life as possible) is going to make more of a difference to the overall welfare of farm animals.

What I'm trying to say (probably not brilliantly) is that as a vegetarian are you really making any difference to animal welfare?

I'm not saying you're wrong in any way to not want to eat meat, and i know lots of people (vets, vet students, vet applicants (and normal people :P) etc) who are veggies so don't be put off going into the veterinary profession just because you don't eat meat!

[VeggieGirl]

Thanks for all the replies - they are all really helpful and have made me think It's so hard because in one ear I hear 'you are not doing anything by not eating meat' and in the other ear I hear 'one person can make a difference to animal welfare'. I know I am definitely confused and probably the reason why is that there is no right or wrong answer to the problem.
All I know is that from a very young age I have had an underlying passion for animal welfare, I can't even step on an insect without feeling guilty that i've taken a life, I don't know if this is excessive or silly (not going to start a huge debate about it because we could talk for hours) but i've also wanted to be a vet since I was tiny; the reason is I want to make animals better and relieve their suffering.

I don't really understand fully why I do not eat meat, maybe it is just the thought of eating something dead? I think I just see it like recycling - it is a growing movement and if one person talks about how some animals are treated on farms maybe someone else will change what they buy to higher welfare meat? That's not like recycling but you see what I mean!

[overtherainbow]

if you are that sensitive how will you cope when someone brings in their perfectly healthy dog, says they dont want it anymore and asks you to put it down? (this is a perfectly valid interview question but is also worth a serious think about in your position.) being a vet can lead to some hard decisions and you need to be prepared for this or you will struggle with the job.

you will need to work with farmers a lot as a vet student and if you say you are veggie for those reasons you will cause yourself a lot of unneccesary grief so regardless of what you think, on a farm try and keep it to yourself!

[Snuffleupagus]

(Original post by superhan)
What I'm trying to say (probably not brilliantly) is that as a vegetarian are you really making any difference to animal welfare?

I think I can see where you're coming from, but that's a pretty simplistic view. Rejecting what is regarded as the norm, and refusing to contribute directly those who produce animal products, does have an impact - both financially, and in terms of how society as a whole views the way animals are used. It calls things into question; this inevitably leads to other, like-minded people seeing that there is an alternative to the norm, and that they, too, can make a stand against something that they feel is unjust. This is apparent from both the increasing numbers of vegetarians and vegans around the world, and the increasing awareness, in the developed world, at least, of the origin of animal products, and increasing concern regarding the lives of the animals from which they are produced.

I don't, however, believe that you can ever guarantee that an animal has not suffered - even if you know the farm it has come from treats the animals well, even if they're free range and organic, they all end up at the same slaughterhouses, which, in many cases, leave a lot to be desired (see recent campaigns to introduce CCTV into abbatoirs). Also, although, of course, there are ways of being a more discerning shopper (which should be applauded), if you go out, or to other people's houses, to eat, and unless you cook your own food from scratch, it's impossible to know the origin of all the animal products you consume.

To many people, it just boils down to the fact that we believe it's just plain wrong to take an animal's life simply for the sake of tickling a fancy (before anyone has a go, even mainstream health organisations concede that there is absolutely no physical need to eat meat - indeed, it can even damage health). I know I'm in the minority, but it's how I feel, and I don't understand how people fail to see the perverse horror of it all - but they don't, and I can only hope that one day, the majority will feel as I do, and will look back at us in the same way that we look back at those who believed it natural and acceptable to own slaves.

Oh gawd, I don't want to cause an argument (I've been meaning to come back to our discussion, Schizopear, but exams got in the way!). I'm not having a go, or demonising anyone - we all get by in our own way, I guess, but I would always encourage people to question everything, especially the things that are taken for granted (and I can say this because I'm probably old enough to be your mother, all of you).

The point I actually wanted to make was to the original poster. I applied to vet school this year, and, as you can see, I have similar views to yours. I know there seems to be this idea that you have to accept and support all things farming-related if you want to be a vet, but it's nonsense. As long as you're mature enough to accept that you're going to see a lot of things that you disagree with - that upset you - along the way, and that you will be interacting with people who have very different views from yours, and, more importantly, that you feel that you can do this professionally, and with good grace, then go for it. There's definitely room for more people like us in the profession - time has moved on.

I now live back in the rural community I was brought up in - I have some very good friends who are farmers, and although we're at opposite poles in some respects, it doesn't prevent us from being friends (in fact, several have said they totally understand why I feel the way I do). I think it's important to be able to interact with a person as a person, not as an embodiment of certain ideas, even if those ideas are different from yours - a vet has to deal with all sorts of clients. As long as they're not doing something obviously abusive, I think I'll be ok!

I also think it's important to accept that this is the world as it is right now - it's upsetting, and unjust, but it's all we've got to work with; by looking it in the eye and taking the emotional hit, we can get to a position where we can help to make it a little bit better - whether by helping the animals we come into contact with as best we can, or by challenging outdated/cruel practices from an informed, authoritative position. The end will justify the means.

I want to be able to ease the suffering of animals when and where I can - although it would probably be too difficult emotionally for me to work as a farm vet, I believe that all animals deserve the best care we can give them - in fact, it could even be argued that farm animals deserve the best care of all, considering what we take from them.

Sorry to have gone on for ages

[Snuffleupagus]

(Original post by VeggieGirl)
Thanks for all the replies - they are all really helpful and have made me think It's so hard because in one ear I hear 'you are not doing anything by not eating meat' and in the other ear I hear 'one person can make a difference to animal welfare'. I know I am definitely confused and probably the reason why is that there is no right or wrong answer to the problem.
All I know is that from a very young age I have had an underlying passion for animal welfare, I can't even step on an insect without feeling guilty that i've taken a life, I don't know if this is excessive or silly (not going to start a huge debate about it because we could talk for hours) but i've also wanted to be a vet since I was tiny; the reason is I want to make animals better and relieve their suffering.

I don't really understand fully why I do not eat meat, maybe it is just the thought of eating something dead? I think I just see it like recycling - it is a growing movement and if one person talks about how some animals are treated on farms maybe someone else will change what they buy to higher welfare meat? That's not like recycling but you see what I mean!

You sound like a kind and sensitive person - don't give up your desire to relieve animal suffering. I believe that too many people who feel the way you do - who really care about animals - have been scared out of following their dream because of people like the poster with the 'put the dog down' dilemma. Yes, terrible decisions have to be made when you're a vet, but you have 5 years in vet school to prepare - to learn how to cope, as well as learning your legal position and rights in such circumstances.

Yes, you have to be able to deal with some difficult things as a vet, but I'd rather start off with too much empathy than too little - you can develop robustness, but you can't learn to care.

[VeggieGirl]

(Original post by Snuffleupagus)
I think I can see where you're coming from, but that's a pretty simplistic view. Rejecting what is regarded as the norm, and refusing to contribute directly those who produce animal products, does have an impact - both financially, and in terms of how society as a whole views the way animals are used. It calls things into question; this inevitably leads to other, like-minded people seeing that there is an alternative to the norm, and that they, too, can make a stand against something that they feel is unjust. This is apparent from both the increasing numbers of vegetarians and vegans around the world, and the increasing awareness, in the developed world, at least, of the origin of animal products, and increasing concern regarding the lives of the animals from which they are produced.

I don't, however, believe that you can ever guarantee that an animal has not suffered - even if you know the farm it has come from treats the animals well, even if they're free range and organic, they all end up at the same slaughterhouses, which, in many cases, leave a lot to be desired (see recent campaigns to introduce CCTV into abbatoirs). Also, although, of course, there are ways of being a more discerning shopper (which should be applauded), if you go out, or to other people's houses, to eat, and unless you cook your own food from scratch, it's impossible to know the origin of all the animal products you consume.

To many people, it just boils down to the fact that we believe it's just plain wrong to take an animal's life simply for the sake of tickling a fancy (before anyone has a go, even mainstream health organisations concede that there is absolutely no physical need to eat meat - indeed, it can even damage health). I know I'm in the minority, but it's how I feel, and I don't understand how people fail to see the perverse horror of it all - but they don't, and I can only hope that one day, the majority will feel as I do, and will look back at us in the same way that we look back at those who believed it natural and acceptable to own slaves.

Oh gawd, I don't want to cause an argument (I've been meaning to come back to our discussion, Schizopear, but exams got in the way!). I'm not having a go, or demonising anyone - we all get by in our own way, I guess, but I would always encourage people to question everything, especially the things that are taken for granted (and I can say this because I'm probably old enough to be your mother, all of you).

The point I actually wanted to make was to the original poster. I applied to vet school this year, and, as you can see, I have similar views to yours. I know there seems to be this idea that you have to accept and support all things farming-related if you want to be a vet, but it's nonsense. As long as you're mature enough to accept that you're going to see a lot of things that you disagree with - that upset you - along the way, and that you will be interacting with people who have very different views from yours, and, more importantly, that you feel that you can do this professionally, and with good grace, then go for it. There's definitely room for more people like us in the profession - time has moved on.

I now live back in the rural community I was brought up in - I have some very good friends who are farmers, and although we're at opposite poles in some respects, it doesn't prevent us from being friends (in fact, several have said they totally understand why I feel the way I do). I think it's important to be able to interact with a person as a person, not as an embodiment of certain ideas, even if those ideas are different from yours - a vet has to deal with all sorts of clients. As long as they're not doing something obviously abusive, I think I'll be ok!

I also think it's important to accept that this is the world as it is right now - it's upsetting, and unjust, but it's all we've got to work with; by looking it in the eye and taking the emotional hit, we can get to a position where we can help to make it a little bit better - whether by helping the animals we come into contact with as best we can, or by challenging outdated/cruel practices from an informed, authoritative position. The end will justify the means.

I want to be able to ease the suffering of animals when and where I can - although it would probably be too difficult emotionally for me to work as a farm vet, I believe that all animals deserve the best care we can give them - in fact, it could even be argued that farm animals deserve the best care of all, considering what we take from them.

Sorry to have gone on for ages

If only I could say how I feel as good as you do! You have literally made me feel so much better and I totally agree with you. Although we may not be able to change the world we live in, or change another person's opinion, we could still change something little - and that's how it starts isn't it? Maybe by providing a different perspective you could change a life for the better.
Thanks for everyone's replies

[Tarnia]

For me, I choose to eat meat on occasion because I respect all life, and don't believe in drawing a line...we keep finding sentience in "lower" and "lower" species (e.g. lobster).

Having said that, I've taken a lot of welfare courses and something a prof I respect said helped him draw his line is whether animals raised for meat live a decent live and are given a painless death. On the whole, he thinks they do. And on the whole, I agree...though I still have an issue with animal transport, but it is improving and that is another story.

Do I think foie gras geese live a good live? Heck no. So I don't eat that. Do I think old-style continental veal calves live a good life? No, so I don't eat veal either.

But that's me-the rest of you may have very different opinions.

I'm not going to sit here and claim animal production systems are perfect-they aren't. I am a vet student, and I did attend the lectures stating what percentage of dairy cattle on a given farm will be lame. That isn't an acceptable life, so admittedly as I learn more perhaps I will have to change my views. But those stats aren't held up by the farms I've visited (admittedly more in Canada than here).

The 'right to life' discussion and whether 2.5 lactations (less in North America) for a dairy cow is acceptable whether or not the 2.5 lactations she lives and whether or not she is killed humanely is also a valid point.

I can't comment on the farming detrimental to the environment because I don't have all the stats in front of me...but I've certainly seen stats that present a different viewpoint, so I agree, make sure you can back up what you say/you've done the research.

[Kysa]

I'm also applying in the autumn, was brought up vegetarian, so I guess that makes being veggie easier for me perhaps.

My primary objection to eating meat is the amount of land it takes up (in terms of both feeding and keeping livestock) considering the number of people in the world who are living in poverty and don't have enough to eat. Apparently, if we took all the edible food we feed to animals that's grown in the USA and fed it to people, no one in the world would be hungry.

To me, that's completely ethically unacceptable.

As a veterinary applicant I'm happy to put these objections aside, work with farmers and accept their points of view - I have to, because the way society works at the moment means that there are livestock everywhere whose welfare can be improved through veterinary work.

Out of interest, does anyone have any strong feelings on lab-meat?

[Snuffleupagus]

(Original post by VeggieGirl)
If only I could say how I feel as good as you do! You have literally made me feel so much better and I totally agree with you.

Haha! I've had WAY more practice!
So glad you feel better about things - it can get quite lonely sometimes, I know.

I forgot to add this link to my last post - it might be useful to you:

http://www.andrewknight.info/index.html

This man is pretty inspiring (although some of his leisure activities are a bit whacky!). He's a vet and a vegan, and as a student in Australia he risked his place at vet school to fight for more humane teaching methods (he won). He continues to work to improve the welfare of animals in many contexts, and best of all, he does so using intelligent arguments with a sound scientific basis. I bought his new book, The Costs and Benefits of Animal Experiments recently - it's been very positively reviewed by some very credible people, so I'm looking forward to getting stuck in when I finish my exams.

Hope that helps!

[MaverickVet]

(Original post by Snuffleupagus)
You sound like a kind and sensitive person - don't give up your desire to relieve animal suffering. I believe that too many people who feel the way you do - who really care about animals - have been scared out of following their dream because of people like the poster with the 'put the dog down' dilemma. Yes, terrible decisions have to be made when you're a vet, but you have 5 years in vet school to prepare - to learn how to cope, as well as learning your legal position and rights in such circumstances.

Yes, you have to be able to deal with some difficult things as a vet, but I'd rather start off with too much empathy than too little - you can develop robustness, but you can't learn to care.

I can't agree with this more!

Hi VeggieGirl,
I'm a Vegetarian and about to go into my final year. It seems like we have some similar views on vegetarianism. I don't think that killing animals is ever morally justifiable or necessary.

There are a lot of people saying don't mention your beliefs it to the farmer/ vet but I don't think you have to hide your views from people. I don't bring it up but when i'm asked or if it comes up, I will tell people what I think. It really hasn't been a problem, it causes more surprise and interest than anything.

Also, you will never be forced to put a healthy animal down, you can refuse as long as you direct the client to another vet (who hopefully will also refuse).

The veterinary profession has been complicit in causing a lot of the welfare problems in both small and large animals, by facilitating the management and conformation changes that we have inflicted on animals to suit our needs.

Having said that the profession is changing, as are the general publics attitudes. Although things happen on farms, in breeders and at horse races etc that I absolutely abhor, I wouldn't and couldn't do anything else. I'm going to change things from the inside.

Having people like us around will help. I believe that by coming into contact with people who think like us; farmers, vets and the public will be forced to reassess their own beliefs and not just carry on with whats always been done, thinking that its ok.

The Veterinary profession needs more people like you.

In truth, i'm probably not going to be a farm vet. Whilst I enjoy the work and I care greatly for the animals, I don't care enough for the farmers and helping to make them money, although this is obviously inextricably linked to the animals. I'd honestly rather the farms didn't exist and that there was no need for the vets to be there. I realise this will probably never happen, at least not in my lifetime but you have to try and do something - if everyone thought it was impossible, no change would ever happen and even a little change can have a massive impact.

[Snuffleupagus]

(Original post by MaverickVet)
Hi VeggieGirl,
I'm a Vegetarian and about to go into my final year. It seems like we have some similar views on vegetarianism. I don't think that killing animals is ever morally justifiable or necessary.

There are a lot of people saying don't mention your beliefs it to the farmer/ vet but I don't think you have to hide your views from people. I don't bring it up but when i'm asked or if it comes up, I will tell people what I think. It really hasn't been a problem, it causes more surprise and interest than anything.

Also, you will never be forced to put a healthy animal down, you can refuse as long as you direct the client to another vet (who hopefully will also refuse).

The veterinary profession has been complicit in causing a lot of the welfare problems in both small and large animals, by facilitating the management and conformation changes that we have inflicted on animals to suit our needs.

Having said that the profession is changing, as are the general publics attitudes. Although things happen on farms, in breeders and at horse races etc that I absolutely abhor, I wouldn't and couldn't do anything else. I'm going to change things from the inside.

Having people like us around will help. I believe that by coming into contact with people who think like us; farmers, vets and the public will be forced to reassess their own beliefs and not just carry on with whats always been done, thinking that its ok.

The Veterinary profession needs more people like you.

In truth, i'm probably not going to be a farm vet. Whilst I enjoy the work and I care greatly for the animals, I don't care enough for the farmers and helping to make them money, although this is obviously inextricably linked to the animals. I'd honestly rather the farms didn't exist and that there was no need for the vets to be there. I realise this will probably never happen, at least not in my lifetime but you have to try and do something - if everyone thought it was impossible, no change would ever happen and even a little change can have a massive impact.

I can't tell you how good it is to read this, and to know that there's someone out there who feels just as strongly as I do, already at vet school. I know it's inevitable, really, but I only ever seem to come into contact with the vet students and applicants who are supportive of the meat industry etc. - although this would never put me off (I'm determined, and know that my views ARE compatible with being a vet), I did suspect that I'd be very much alone in my views at vet school.

I completely agree with you about the veterinary profession being complicit in causing a lot of welfare problems, but as you say, the tide seems to be turning (very slowly, but it's turning, nonetheless), and I think it's very important that people with views similar to yours, and VeggieGirl's, and mine, are represented within the profession.

Wishing you the very best of luck with everything - hopefully, in a few years' time, I'll be joining you, changing things from the inside!

[popnit]

(Original post by schizopear)
i was a vegetarian for about 10 years for ethical reasons but am now quite happy to eat meat that has been reared humanely. i had a bit of vegetarian guilt when i first started eating meat again but my work experience on farms has led me to believe that, providing the welfare is of a high standard, there is nothing wrong with eating meat/dairy/eggs

not aimed at you, but i really hate the strict vegetarian/vegan agenda that some people/organisations have. i believe that, irrespective of your own personal choices about eating meat, the best way to improve animal welfare is not to ostracise meat eaters/producers but to encourage improvements within the meat industry so that those that choose to eat meat can eat high welfare meat.

Do you just not get it though? You still kill the poor thing in the end anyway!!!!

[clair0511]

(Original post by VeggieGirl)
I can't even step on an insect without feeling guilty that i've taken a life, I don't know if this is excessive or silly (not going to start a huge debate about it because we could talk for hours) but i've also wanted to be a vet since I was tiny; the reason is I want to make animals better and relieve their suffering.

Hi
I don't have time to write a lot today, I used to be a veggie myself (and studied Animal Science on the very agricultural campus at Uni of Notts Sutton Bonington at the time!) so I can understand where you're coming from. But this statement (above) bothers me for a future vet student! How will you cope with dissections? The animals are very dead and not always because they had some fatal disease! I admit that I'm not an expert on UK vet schools but here in Austria we dissect "healthy" animals in our anatomy labs and then the sick ones (which have all died a natural death or been put down) in pathology practicals. Apart from the fact that doing work experience at abattoirs (as part of the course), means you will obviously have to experience animals being killed right in front of your eyes

As the others have said, it's part of the course, part of life. I eat meat now, but only a couple of times a week and I always try very hard to find high welfare, free range, organic meat......my husband drove an hour out of Vienna at Xmas to buy a free-range, organic turkey! I know that doesn't mean much to a hard-core veggie (future vegan?) but we are trying our best!

[MaverickVet]

(Original post by clair0511)
Hi
I don't have time to write a lot today, I used to be a veggie myself (and studied Animal Science on the very agricultural campus at Uni of Notts Sutton Bonington at the time!) so I can understand where you're coming from. But this statement (above) bothers me for a future vet student! How will you cope with dissections? The animals are very dead and not always because they had some fatal disease! I admit that I'm not an expert on UK vet schools but here in Austria we dissect "healthy" animals in our anatomy labs and then the sick ones (which have all died a natural death or been put down) in pathology practicals. Apart from the fact that doing work experience at abattoirs (as part of the course), means you will obviously have to experience animals being killed right in front of your eyes

As the others have said, it's part of the course, part of life. I eat meat now, but only a couple of times a week and I always try very hard to find high welfare, free range, organic meat......my husband drove an hour out of Vienna at Xmas to buy a free-range, organic turkey! I know that doesn't mean much to a hard-core veggie (future vegan?) but we are trying our best!

I know this wasn't addressed to me but i'm going to answer it anyway as it affects me. For dissection we get dogs that have been put down from shelters e.g. dangerous dogs that were going to be PTS anyway so i see it as preventing waste in a way. For the other animals we get e.g. cows, sheep, goats, horses etc they are all animals that would have gone for meat, just diverted into our education. Some of the small mammals we get are ex lab animals which are being killed at the end of their experiments and our exotic animals are mainly culls from zoos etc. Also, we have a lot of teaching from preserved and potted specimens that are used every year so that reduces the numbers of animals used. The pathology samples don't really bother me too much as they would have been killed anyway. We also try to use a lot of computer software and models where possible.

I have also done a week in an abattoir and have another week to go as part of my veterinary public health rotation. I had to explain this same point to the staff and students there when they asked why i wasn't upset by it. Seeing the animals die doesn't bother me per se, its the fact that they are being killed if that makes sense. I will try to explain:

I know the science behind stunning and slaughter, which when done properly is quick and painless. However it isn't always done properly - accidents happen, people make mistakes and lose their temper and animals react erratically to the abattoir environment - as i have seen many times and this can be distressing to anyone veggie or not e.g. seeing a cow get shot with a captive bolt 6 times and then stuck while still concious and hoisted into the air to bleed out while kicking and thrashing and this was in a good abattoir. Also a lot of the time stunning isn't done at all i.e. in kosher and most halal slaughter houses which make up a large proportion of all abattors and i think is disgusting and a travesty that it occurs at all.

Death is not a welfare issue (if done humanely) but it is a moral and ethical one.

Its also worth saying that in the uk I believe we do alot less abattoir work compared to on the continent and very few graduates go into this area of work. It is worth doing though as I was allowed to practice shooting a captive bolt into the heads after they were removed - better to practice on a dead cow first.

I think what happens on the farm for the animals whole life is just as, if not more important than their transport and slaughter.

I try to take the most from the animals that have died so i can be a good vet in the future and help many more animals.

If there were no animals being routinely killed in this country then where we sourced the animal specemins from for veterinary education would be a real challenge. Having said that there would also be a lot less vets needed - but this is a long way off.

I wanted to finish by saying that whilst i applaud your efforts to eat ethically sourced meat - Organic isn't all its cracked up to be and certainly isn't better for animal welfare by default - some organic farms are better welfare, but some are far worse.

[Kysa]

Also, you will never be forced to put a healthy animal down, you can refuse as long as you direct the client to another vet (who hopefully will also refuse).

The problem is that, if someone comes to you with a healthy animal, adamant that they won't look at having it rehomed and insist on having it put down... If you refuse, even if you refer them to another vet, what happens when they walk out that door? If a client is that determined to have a healthy animal put down, what's to stop them from throwing it in front of a car or otherwise taking it into their own hands?

[MaverickVet]

(Original post by Kysa)
The problem is that, if someone comes to you with a healthy animal, adamant that they won't look at having it rehomed and insist on having it put down... If you refuse, even if you refer them to another vet, what happens when they walk out that door? If a client is that determined to have a healthy animal put down, what's to stop them from throwing it in front of a car or otherwise taking it into their own hands?

I agree that this is a very real potential problem. I think that the vast majority of people in this position will, upon discussion and reflection with a vet etc, find another course that doesn't resort to this. Most of the people who want their healthy animal PTS are just emotional and at the end of their tether and may believe its the best thing for the animal or that no-one else could love it as much as them etc. Also maybe the vet I refer them to will be happy to put it down. In which case, although I don't agree with them, its not me that did it. While there is nothing to stop the owner from doing these things (apart from the law and morality) - you can't be bullied into doing things by what other people might do. If they choose to do something terrible, at the end of the day its on them. If I had reason to believe an animal was in danger from their owner, I would contact the Police and/or RSPCA.

I know many people who would say its better to give the animal a peaceful death and charge the owner for it than have the risk of the animal being killed by the owner and I do see this point of view. I'm not going to say i'm never going to euthanase a healthy animal at any point in my career. I can't imagine doing it now but i can't predict all of the cases i'm going to come across. Basically I just want to be able to sleep at night.