[py0alb]

(Original post by Hylean)
Really? So people who might have an agenda against an institution which led to their abuse are more rational...

Now I'm beginning to doubt your objectivity.




Proof for any of these baseless assertions?




I don't know, you're not really showing this side right now, to be honest. It's clearly wishful thinking that there is no such thing as an "atheist agenda" to be indoctrinated into.




Or, shock horror, they were "indoctrinated" at a young age and carried on like most people.




Really? I took both definitions from the Definitional Thread, so clearly there's a general concensus on the definition I gave. Interestingly, your definition of atheism exists nowhere except in your head.

Clearly you find it unpalatable, because you can't admit a simple truth.




Except, that's not what atheism is about. Atheism is about a belief that there is no deity or a disbelief in any deity. That's a fact. Thus, it can be very easy to indoctrinate someone into that idea. It's also easy to indoctrinate people into an anti-religion viewpoint as well, which often goes hand-in-hand with atheism (Hitchens would be a good example).

Your argument is that atheism somehow defines itself by scepticism (hint, it doesn't) and thinking for yourself (hint, it doesn't). You have yet to prove this assertion, so I can disregard it like you do any god out there.




This entire post makes no sense. And does little to prove, at all, your idea that atheists can't indoctrinate their children the same way religious parents "can".

Until you can provide a decent argument to show that religious upbringing in the West is actually indoctrination on a level different to teaching social and cultural values, etc. and that somehow atheists are above these processes (hint, they're not), it's just not worth it debating with you. You're clearly biased and not approaching the debate objectively.

You have a very poor memory. I remember discussing this with you and several others on the definitional thread and we all told you time and time again that your bizarre definition of atheism was not the one accepted either in academic circles or in the TSR Religion forum, and encouraged you to start using the accepted version.


You also appear to be attempting to change the subject to something I haven't even touched on in any of my posts. How about either responding directly to some of my points rather than repeating pointless and unfounded accusations of bias? I will take a refusal to do so as an admission that you're in out of your depth. You're a very poor debator sometimes Hylean.

[S-man10]

(Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
Lied to in your opinion Besides, even if one has been lied to all your life, you are all giving serious lack of credit to the average child brought up in a religious environment. Unless severe brainwashing (the true meaning of indoctrination) has occured, then of course a young person is in a position to doubt their faith at any point. You have now-atheists on here claiming that they decided religion was BS at a very young age (I forget which specific users but I have seen it said on here). I myself began questioning what I was taught at (Sunday) school at least by the age of 11, despite a very religious upbringing, if not even before then

You miss out a key step. Yes, they are lied to by being pressured into accepting and "X religion is the absolute and objective truth" when really, those who force such and such haven't even defined word "truth" accurately. If you were to ask them, they would be quite stumped when they can't come with an answer. (I could easily ask you the definition of the word as well and see your answer.)

[Hypocrism]

(Original post by Hylean)
Really? So people who might have an agenda against an institution which led to their abuse are more rational...

I am afraid you missed the point. Let me set straight what I was putting across to you.

The people involved were NOT highly scarred by their molestation, and weren't on a mission to defame the church-in fact they were sought out to give their story, and did not come forward intentionally. What was more difficult to them (and I'm referencing one particular case here) was a woman who (along with a molestation-ouch!) had a friend die in her youth, and was plagued with nightmares into her adulthood, even after leaving the church, of him burning in the hell that religion had implanted into her mind. Nothing to do with an agenda-simply explaining the terrible guilt and fear that religion puts into children.

Having an agenda doesn't make you less rational or more rational. It means you direct your efforts towards something related to your task-you can do so in either a rational or an irrational way. I think you are (somehow) mistaking the definition of rationality. It's a quality which involves using reason to make a decision on the information available, rather than making a decision not based on reason. Since religious beliefs by default are defined by their scripture which is unchanging, their opinions on religion are fundamentally irrational, because they won't be able to change, even under infallible contradictory ideas. If someone's faith isn't based on a particular scripture, they are not a member of that faith, meaning that if someone is de-converted by a certain argument, they have applied rationality to their belief and decided they they are not worth following. That's the reason why ex-Catholics are more rational about religion than practising Catholics-nothing to do with an agenda.

Now I'm beginning to doubt your objectivity.

Classy, ad hominem attacks. If my argument is so subjective, explain to me where my post was so faulty, and I'll demonstrate how you're obviously incorrect for you.

[py0alb]

(Original post by Hypocrism)
I Classy, ad hominem attacks. If my argument is so subjective, explain to me where my post was so faulty, and I'll demonstrate how you're obviously incorrect for you.

Its Hylean's calling card. He tells you you're totally wrong and "obviously biased", but then refuses to say why.

[robin22391]

(Original post by Multitalented me)
Or parents just doing what's best for their children? I personally believe teaching children about different religions is ok as long as they are not forced into choosing one & can make up their own decision when they're old enough to understand religion properly. It's not the same as making them have a wash, eat food, wear clothes, brush their teeth etc as proof is needed that it's acutally beneficial. I feel so sorry for all the kids with families that usually only instill in them their own religion & force them to undertake religious practices when they can't even fully comprehend religion & thus it can lead to future psychological harm. The same applies to cases where some atheist parents will also do this. These unfortunate children need to be taken away from the influences of their family & be around those who will treat them properly (i.e. no pressurising, no guilt tripping, letting them learn about lots of different faiths & when they're old enough to decide for themselves whether to follow any religion, will not love them any less)

this could be argued

but be careful not to go totally brave new world

[Rat_Bag]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
I'm pretty sure it happens. It's more common that relationships tend to get weaker if someone in the family decided to convert to something like Islam (I've been asked advice in such situations).

And what is the effect on relationships when someone in the family decides to leave Islam?

(Original post by Perseveranze)
On TSR you should read the thread "What if your son/daughter converted to Islam", most of the replies from Atheists was somewhat disturbing.

And am sure the metaphorical thread "What is your son/daughter left Islam", would have an awful lot of replies from Muslims which would be equally if not more disturbing.

[Xotol]

(Original post by Rat_Bag)
And what is the effect on relationships when someone in the family decides to leave Islam?

Bad. To say the least.

[Rat_Bag]

(Original post by Xotol)
Bad. To say the least.

Indeed

It always amuses me when you hear some convert to Islam grumbling about how their family feel awkward when out and about with them now that they wear hijab, or how their family don't understand halal rules of food or are not making them separate halal meals. I say amuse me, but it's also very saddening, when you think how naive, self-absorbed and introspective these people are. They never contemplate how it is for people going heading the other direction as them. But I guess that is Islam for you; it is all about naivety, self-absorption and introspection.

[TheRustaman]

(Original post by Kiss)
Wow, what a militant atheist. I'm guessing if it were up to you you'd love to kill every single religious person.

Great straw man argument!

No i feel sympathy for people who have brainwashed. I would encourage them to think critically of their own position, challenge the very beliefs that they have only known, their whole life.

Religion is a disease of the mind, it's infectious, and very hard to treat...

[CherryCherryBoomBoom]

I remember posting a couple of times that my parents wake me and my sisters up every morning for family prayer time (which I do dislike tbh) and I got a few negs with no explanation (as TSR peeps do ). I also mentioned it on another site and someone left a comment mentioning something about child abuse (even though I'm not even a child, lol) . I mean, is this what people really think? That making children pray is child abuse? Would be nice if someone replied to this, thanks.

Also, I think it's a bit hard to tell a very religious person that they should be open minded and not raise their children in their religion, because that religious person truly believes that spreading their religion is the right thing to do. Children do get influenced as youngsters, but as they get older they have the wisdom to make up their own minds, so I'm not sure it's really that bad of a thing.

[Hypocrism]

(Original post by CherryCherryBoomBoom)
I remember posting a couple of times that my parents wake me and my sisters up every morning for family prayer time (which I do dislike tbh) and I got a few negs with no explanation (as TSR peeps do ). I also mentioned it on another site and someone left a comment mentioning something about child abuse (even though I'm not even a child, lol) . I mean, is this what people really think? That making children pray is child abuse? Would be nice if someone replied to this, thanks.

Also, I think it's a bit hard to tell a very religious person that they should be open minded and not raise their children in their religion, because that religious person truly believes that spreading their religion is the right thing to do. Children do get influenced as youngsters, but as they get older they have the wisdom to make up their own minds, so I'm not sure it's really that bad of a thing.

Yes, because they then can't make up their own mind.

Sure, they are "free" to leave the religion. But will they feel confident enough to do it with the disapproval of all their relatives, a good proportion of their friends, and the fear of an eternity in hell that's been drilled into them since childhood?

[Prime Suspect]

If, starting tomorrow, every child in the world was somehow prevented from ever hearing of or learning about any religion, all religion would be dead within a generation.

I bet new ones would arise though.

[bm127]

(Original post by Prime Suspect)
If, starting tomorrow, every child in the world was somehow prevented from ever hearing of or learning about any religion, all religion would be dead within a generation.

I bet new ones would arise though.

That's true, and they would be completely different to the ones around now, and the members of the new ones would believe their religion is the only true religion just like the people in today's religions do. Whereas if all scientific knowledge was wiped out and had to be rediscovered the same things would be discovered all over again.

[Prime Suspect]

(Original post by bm127)
That's true, and they would be completely different to the ones around now, and the members of the new ones would believe their religion is the only true religion just like the people in today's religions do. Whereas if all scientific knowledge was wiped out and had to be rediscovered the same things would be discovered all over again.

Exactly. That's why I laugh when religious people talk about absolute truth!

[bm127]

(Original post by CherryCherryBoomBoom)
I remember posting a couple of times that my parents wake me and my sisters up every morning for family prayer time (which I do dislike tbh) and I got a few negs with no explanation (as TSR peeps do ). I also mentioned it on another site and someone left a comment mentioning something about child abuse (even though I'm not even a child, lol) . I mean, is this what people really think? That making children pray is child abuse? Would be nice if someone replied to this, thanks.

Also, I think it's a bit hard to tell a very religious person that they should be open minded and not raise their children in their religion, because that religious person truly believes that spreading their religion is the right thing to do. Children do get influenced as youngsters, but as they get older they have the wisdom to make up their own minds, so I'm not sure it's really that bad of a thing.

What about when the child gets to the age where they have made their own mind up and it's not aligned with their family beliefs. There will be a lot of upset/tension caused, and they will probably go through a transition period where they're still having to attend services/meetings for something they no longer believe in. Many people will probably feel pressured into continuing to avoid family upset etc etc, all of which can be avoided by not indoctrinating kids in the first place. Surely it's better for someone to make their own mind up about whether they are an atheist/religious/agnostic when they are old enough to understand the implications, than get to that age and have to escape from a religion they have been forced into, and which their life may be centered around.

[CherryCherryBoomBoom]

(Original post by Hypocrism)
Yes, because they then can't make up their own mind.

Sure, they are "free" to leave the religion. But will they feel confident enough to do it with the disapproval of all their relatives, a good proportion of their friends, and the fear of an eternity in hell that's been drilled into them since childhood?

(Original post by bm127)
What about when the child gets to the age where they have made their own mind up and it's not aligned with their family beliefs. There will be a lot of upset/tension caused, and they will probably go through a transition period where they're still having to attend services/meetings for something they no longer believe in. Many people will probably feel pressured into continuing to avoid family upset etc etc, all of which can be avoided by not indoctrinating kids in the first place. Surely it's better for someone to make their own mind up about whether they are an atheist/religious/agnostic when they are old enough to understand the implications, than get to that age and have to escape from a religion they have been forced into, and which their life may be centered around.

OK, but if the parents are always religious throughout the child's life, then how is the child leaving a religion after being indoctrinated that much different from not being indoctrinated in the first place but still deciding not to follow their parents' religion anyway? Either way the parents will still feel some disappointment that their child didn't follow their preferred way of living and thinking, and it's their problem if they don't like it. Once you get to a certain age where you've moved out of your parents' house and are living independently, it shouldn't be as much of an issue.

[Dhaal_Chawal]

(Original post by Rat_Bag)
Indeed

It always amuses me when you hear some convert to Islam grumbling about how their family feel awkward when out and about with them now that they wear hijab, or how their family don't understand halal rules of food or are not making them separate halal meals. I say amuse me, but it's also very saddening, when you think how naive, self-absorbed and introspective these people are. They never contemplate how it is for people going heading the other direction as them. But I guess that is Islam for you; it is all about naivety, self-absorption and introspection.

Bit of a stupid thing to say, how do you know they don't contemplate how it is for people leaving Islam? I haven't heard much 'grumbling' from many people who joined Islam anyway. Seems you're just annoyed people are joining Islam.

[TurboCretin]

(Original post by Giant)
A fundamental aspect to democracy is freedom of religion - and that means both to practise and preach.

A child can easily and freely choose to disagree when he is older, but I think it would be out of order to not allow parents to bring up their children under X religion.

...It is?

[TurboCretin]

(Original post by Hypocrism)
Yes, because they then can't make up their own mind.

Sure, they are "free" to leave the religion. But will they feel confident enough to do it with the disapproval of all their relatives, a good proportion of their friends, and the fear of an eternity in hell that's been drilled into them since childhood?

So I was abused every time I was sent to bed or made to wash?

[miser]

I don't think putting these children into care is the best thing for them. I think that educating them in schools about religion and science is better, and encouraging them to find answers for themselves about the nature of the world. Like it or not, these parents are trying their best to do right by their children. What they teach them may be empirically wrong or even morally questionable, but the battle against it can only be won with education, not by tearing families up.