Woman raped at 3am by a sick nasty rapist after getting thrown off the bus...

I also oppose prostitution, because of the high level of VAW that occurs through prostitution. It's a minority of men who turn to prostitution, and the number of women leaving the prostitution industry who later talk of being raped is alarming.

Legalization and regulation would increase social acceptability and so the number of men who turn to prostitution and also protect the women from rape and "VAW".

This is true, wrt them not being prevention tips. However, the aftercare of survivors can go a long way to helping tackle attitudes about rape, thus possibly preventing a rape. I've heard women speak up and say "I didn't realise it was rape", and there's going to be men with the same issue. WRT getting out of an abusive relationship; it's easier said than done. I'm not sure if it's the same for men, but for women, leaving an abusive relationship can be the most dangerous period in a relationship. It's not as simple as "just leave". The victim needs to be aware they're being abused (you'd be surprised how many women brush their abuse off), they need an escape route, and they need to know they'll be supported if they leave.

No, I wouldn't say it'd be putting the woman at fault if she doesn't follow it; abusive relationships are extremely complex.

It does need to be recognised the risks the woman would be at in leaving a relationship. With regards to rape happening out of the blue; which it does... a lot; I think, wrt your comment about women being paranoid of men as a result, oh, this happens. Strangely enough, you know what helps? I found, as a rape survivor, that hearing male friends actively speaking out against violence against women, without knowing what I'd been through, helped restore that trust a little. It helped prove not every man was like my attackers. That's something women can't do quite as easily, especially when you consider how many women are raped in their lifetimes. I'm more trusting of men who challenge rape jokes, poor attitudes of women and victim blaming than I am of those who make rape jokes, victim blame and hold poor attitudes of women.

But women aren't property; we're people.

Whereas it may make sense to say "Don't walk down a poorly lit alleyway at night", it makes no sense to me, as my house is down a poorly lit alleyway. Whereas it may make sense to say "Don't go out wearing a short skirt", it makes no sense to me, as what you wear has no bearing on your probability of being a rape victim. Whereas saying "have a friend walk you home" makes sense to you, it makes no sense to me, when my friends live 20 miles away from me, or when I was attacked by a friend who was supposed to be "protecting" me.

Not sure if this is making sense or not.

Also, up until 1990, the law didn't recognise marital rape as rape, and domestic abuse wasn't outlawed until 1960s.

I'm not sure it increasing the number of men who turn to prostitution is a good thing. I'm also unsure of the effects legislation has on increasing protection of women; I'll have a look for literature on the issue tomorrow (later today, even)

Just a quick aside; you believe pornography/prostitution is a good thing. Out of curiousity, how would you feel if your younger sister entered the industry? (If you don't have one, imagine.) Let's say 25 years down the line, you had an 18 year old daughter... Would you be willing for her to enter the industry?

Seems like you're saying women need more advice on how to avoid rape, or at least stop it happening again Yes it's easier said than done, but women (and men) do need to leave abusive relationships.

So why do you say it's putting women at fault if someone advises them on how to stay safe?

That's good to do, but again it won't really prevent rape, just help victims come back into society. I'm also unsure of why a rapist would be deterred from treating women like objects, unless you're talking about an eventual aim of massive social engineering to get men to never let a woman's appearance decide whether he goes to try and chat her up - something that would involve women changing their attitudes of image drastically too - and hope that alienates rapists to the extent that they try to conform.

I don't get what you're trying to say here I wouldn't give a piece of property advice, but I would give a person advice, on how to protect themselves or their property.

Just because some advice isn't relevant to you specifically doesn't mean it's bad to give it in general. You can stick an "if possible" on the end of the alley and friend advice and it would be sensible, but I'd have thought that was implied.

I think men had 'keep' instead, meaning to look after/provide for, but I see your point.

How can you know that porn means more rape though?

Its seems obvious that legalisation would bring establishments that could operate openly with security and legal protection of the type those involved in the underworld dont have due to fear of prosecution.

Id certainly rather the law was changed to afford sisters and daughters who are prostitutes greater protection and also make the streets safer for everyone by giving people socially acceptable outlets. Same with porn.

No, women need advice on leaving abusive relationships. You can live in an abusive relationship, and never be raped. Or you can be raped in a relationship, and that's the first sign of any violence towards you. Helping women leave abusive relationships isn't advising them on how to avoid rape.

Let's suppose a woman ignores all the "advice" on avoiding rape. I'll go with some of the ones I've heard.
"Don't go out alone" - she goes out alone
"Don't go out after dark" - she goes out after dark
"Don't wear that dress" - and she wears it.

If she then gets raped, because these rape myths on how to stay safe exist, she'd then get told, either by other people, or by her subconscious, "You should have stayed in; it was after dark, you were alone, and you were wearing that dress..." That is deflecting responsibility on to the woman, and thus blaming her for being the victim of a crime. It also reinforces the belief that there's different types of rape, thus leading to victims of rape by a stranger being treated differently to victims of rape by an acquaintance, and victims of rape by a partner. Just one rape prevention tip to a woman, who subsequently gets raped regardless, can have a huge knock on effect on how she views the crime and her own responsibility as a result.

Again, it's a knock on effect. When survivors speak out about rape, and their supporters speak out against rape, it sends out a message to the rapists among society, that rape won't be tolerated, and that survivors aren't willing to be silenced. It's working against the psych (I've forgotten the word) of the rapist, whose attacks rely on the survivor remaining silent. Speaking out against rape says "If you rape someone, we're not staying quiet about it," thus challenging the rapist fear, power and control tactic - You can't control someone if they're already in control. You could also look at it this way; is a rapist more likely to attack if he believes a woman will go to the police about it, or if he thinks she'll shut up, and he'll get away with it?

My point was, women aside, everything you listed was property. In listing women in that manner, you're arguing that women are property that need protecting.

OK, most rapes happen in the bedroom. Advice to women everywhere, stay out of the bedroom.

Do you see the problem there?

I don't even need to add anything to that, do I? So glad wedding vows have changed...

I think, IIRC, a VERY large number of rapists were/are porn users. I'll have to try and find the source. Again, this doesn't mean all porn users will be rapists, just that most rapists are porn users

That's hardly a distinction. You'd advise someone on how to avoid being the victim of (further) crime, but not rape?

I suppose the question is, then, if everyone were to take these precautions, how many fewer rapes would occur?

Yeah, that makes sense. I still think it's reasonable to advise on how to avoid becoming a victim though, it might dissuade some from reporting but that needs to be addressed without leaving women with no preventative measures.

No, I'm not saying women are property. How else can I phrase it? You still protect yourself.

You can have advice on avoiding being robbed or murdered, and I guess where it's a significant risk, how to avoid being kidnapped too.

What can you do about these though? Except for get women to get out after the first time and warn other potential victims. And keep her eyes open for possible warning signs prior to being raped. Nobody else is going to know better than the two in teh relationship.

I'd assume that was correlation only, any causation would be from their personality which made them want to look at porn and want to rape women.

Where domestic abuse is involved, there are usually warning signs. There aren't with rape. Once your friend tells you the warning signs of domestic abuse, you can advise them to leave. But you can't advise them on how to protect themselves if they make the decision to stay, and the relationship does turn abusive. But under your logic, for rape, seeing as there's no warning signs before a rape, then...well, women best never be in the presence of men.

What warning signs come before being raped, then? Do enlighten me.

Not many; They account for less than 15% of all rapes. Some accounts put them as low as 10%, and some rapes occur in the day time. So, y'know...

The reporting rate is 10 - 15%. We don't need more women put off reporting. And no, there's no way to "avoid" becoming a victim. How do women know who rapists are? I mean, it's not like they have "RAPIST" stamped on their forehead. So, how does a woman "avoid" getting raped by her boyfriend? Or her male friend? Or her father?

Funny how men are never told to protect themselves...

"DON'T GO OUT WEARING A SLIPKNOT HOODIE, YOU MIGHT GET MURDERED!"... Yeah, never heard that one before. I've heard advice on how to avoid being robbed, but that's to protect possessions. Never heard advice on how to avoid being murdered though. Or assaulted.

Actually, if you bear in mind porn is effectively rape; I mean, do you really believe that the woman on your monitor wants to have sex with every man she's put in front of? Is it really more justifiable if she's being paid to change her mind into having sex with them?

If you feel a man is acting in a threatening manner towards a woman, step in. Seriously, something as simple as "Is this man bothering you", directed to the woman, not the man, can make the man aware that not only are you suspicious of him, but should he rape this woman, there's someone who's noted his behaviour.

If she then gets raped, because these rape myths on how to stay safe exist, she'd then get told, either by other people, or by her subconscious, "You should have stayed in; it was after dark, you were alone, and you were wearing that dress..." That is deflecting responsibility on to the woman, and thus blaming her for being the victim of a crime. It also reinforces the belief that there's different types of rape, thus leading to victims of rape by a stranger being treated differently to victims of rape by an acquaintance, and victims of rape by a partner. Just one rape prevention tip to a woman, who subsequently gets raped regardless, can have a huge knock on effect on how she views the crime and her own responsibility as a result.

I would say domestic abuse is a warning sign of rape. Not for all rape, of course, but a lot of what you're describing. Presumably they'd have seemed decent enough initially, then gone downhill.

And how many rapes would there not have been without this advice out there?

Ok, at the very least she can avoid being raped again. I'm not saying all rapes can be avoided, but unless you're saying all such rapes come out of the blue, there will be warning signs that could help your chances.

What would you want, for men to have adverts telling them they could be raped and how to avoid it? Personally, I don't think I'd be as fussed as you seem to be. Not taking unlicensed minicabs makes sense, staying in a group makes sense - the only thing that I might scoff at is not dresing revealingly, but you dismiss that too.

You could say the same for the man, he probably wouldn't have sex with all those women if he weren't paid. If you really wanted to count that as rape, then you'd be seriously diluting the meaning, as it is consensual.