[DaveSmith99]

(Original post by Spaz Man)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitra

Read all of it.

That doesn't explain why you did it. I was looking for the thought process that actually makes someone do something like that.

[Spaz Man]

(Original post by DaveSmith99)
That doesn't explain why you did it. I was looking for the thought process that actually makes someone do something like that.

Because I want to follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh). It's one of the ways to do so.

[DaveSmith99]

(Original post by Spaz Man)
Because I want to follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh). It's one of the ways to do so.

Im guessing your a troll, but did anyone know you were going to before you did?

[Spaz Man]

(Original post by DaveSmith99)
Im guessing your a troll, but did anyone know you were going to before you did?

Yep my dad took me. Why do you think I'm a troll?

[M4LLY]

I'd say leave it until the child is old enough to understand what it entiails

[Steevee]

(Original post by 360kal)
I was born a Muslim, now an atheist . I was brought with the traditional Islamic views that circumcision was mandatory but wasn't quite clear why as to many of my the religions questions that i had. As i got older i started realising most non Muslims don't get circumcised and found i strange as its said to leads better sexual health and better hygiene.

I personally see the pros ans cons about this argument. The pros being what i said before hygiene so and so. and cons being the lack of choice to the individual being circumcised at a very early age and also risks of infections.

The 'hygiene' argument is really a myth, if you keep yourself clean there is no difference. It's like removing the hair on your head for 'hygiene'. It means you don't have to wash it so thoroughly so often, but there is no inherent hygiene benefit to being bald.

(Original post by Carter78)
I'm glad that we haven't had anyone arguing for this practice, although I would love to hear the religious view on this issue.

If it's simply based on scripture then that's a shoddy excuse for child mutilation.

Wait till the Muslims get here

(Original post by DaveSmith99)
Im guessing your a troll, but did anyone know you were going to before you did?

He's not a troll, these religious types honestly believe that a good enough reason to hack at your genitals is that some Arab guy did it hundreds of years ago

[DaveSmith99]

(Original post by Spaz Man)
Yep my dad took me. Why do you think I'm a troll?

So you went to your dad and said "Can I please have some of my penis cut off without anaesthetic?", and your dad said "sure son, hop in the car"

[f1mad]

(Original post by DaveSmith99)
So you went to your dad and said "Can I please have some of my penis cut off without aesthetic?", and your dad said "sure son, hop in the car"

.

[Spaz Man]

(Original post by DaveSmith99)
So you went to your dad and said "Can I please have some of my penis cut off without aesthetic?", and your dad said "sure son, hop in the car"

Why do you act as though it's such a big deal? It only took 5-15 minutes. Quick snip and it's off.

Do you actually know circumcision is? Doesn't seem like it from the response.

[DaveSmith99]

(Original post by Spaz Man)
Why do you act as though it's such a big deal? It only took 5-15 minutes. Quick snip and it's off.

Do you actually know circumcision is? Doesn't seem like it from the response.

Because at the age of seven, you decided it was a good idea to go get bits of yourself cut off, and apparently your father was fine with that. No one is mature enough to make serious decisions at the age of seven, and what your farther has done is child abuse.

[SillyEddy]

Circumcision (unless medically advised) should be illegal until age 14, maybe higher. Apparently it hurts more to have it done as you grow older, but so what? If it's what you want, you'll make it work. To the best of my knowledge, there are religions where they condemn any mody manipulations (piercings, tattoo, etc)... So if you converted to that religion after having a circumcision, then it's making you less of a person in those religious views. You'll die without your body intact, and they believe that will affect them in the afterlife.


Christenings, etc are still not totally okay with me. I think the child should be allowed to grow up in a religiously diverse, yet blank, place. As in, they should be allowed to experience all religions without having any be forced upon them. I think most people are religious because it's what they know, not what they want. They grow up in a religious family and get used to those customs. It makes it harder for them to change their religion later on - The groundwork is already in place.

[Spaz Man]

(Original post by DaveSmith99)
Because at the age of seven, you decided it was a good idea to go get bits of yourself cut off, and apparently your father was fine with that. No one is mature enough to make serious decisions at the age of seven, and what your farther has done is child abuse.

I don't think you understand. It was voluntary. I'm fine with it. I wanted it. I don't regret it. The only person raging is you and you seem to think circumcision is castration which is hilariously ignorant.

[green.tea]

(Original post by Giant)
Yes, I agree with you but I'm not sure if it could ever be implemented practically due to the massive opposition it would receive unfortunately

^ This. Although rather than banning it schools should be teaching philosophy rather than RE and the curriculum should scorn belief without reason. Attack the cause and all that.

[DaveSmith99]

(Original post by Spaz Man)
I don't think you understand idiot. It was voluntary. I'm fine with it. I wanted it. I don't regret it. The only person raging is you and you seem to think circumcision is castration which is hilariously ignorant.

I am fully aware of the differences between circumcision and castration.

When I was seven, if I found out that I could somehow get my left hand fused into some sort of cool looking claw thing, I probably would have done. That's why seven year olds don't make important decisions. That why they have parents, to stop them making stupid decisions.

[aftrglw]

(Original post by Steevee)
The 'hygiene' argument is really a myth, if you keep yourself clean there is no difference. It's like removing the hair on your head for 'hygiene'. It means you don't have to wash it so thoroughly so often, but there is no inherent hygiene benefit to being bald.



Wait till the Muslims get here




He's not a troll, these religious types honestly believe that a good enough reason to hack at your genitals is that some Arab guy did it hundreds of years ago

It's not just a religious thing, it can be a cultural one. I'm American and I'm circumcised like most Americans. Trying to tie it to religion is unfair, just like there's tons of philosophers who are pro-life for reasons of rationality, rather than religion.

Obviously, it isn't inherently cleaner... but it does tend to be cleaner and smell less, at least if you're comparing two guys of comparable showering practices. It takes more effort to clean an uncircumcised penis, because it's not all exposed. Unless you're taking the time to clean everything well, the circumcised guy will tend to be cleaner and smell nicer. I haven't directly compared of course, but I've dated several European girls that have confirmed it.

There are of course medical reasons too:

Circumcision: Medical Pros and Cons At A Glance

Inability to retract the foreskin fully at birth is not a medical reason for a circumcision.
Circumcision prevents phimosis (the inability to retract the foreskin at an age when it should normally be retractable), paraphimosis (the painful inability to return the foreskin to its original location), and balanoposthitis (inflammation of the glans and foreskin).
Circumcision increases the chance of meatitis (inflammation of the opening of the penis).
Circumcision may result in a decreased incidence of urinary tract infections.
Circumcision may result in a lower incidence of sexually-transmitted diseases and may reduce HIV transmission.
Circumcision may lower the risk for cancer of the cervix in sexual partners.
Circumcision may decrease the risk for cancer of the penis.
There is no absolute medical indication for routine circumcision of the newborn.

You can find that article here: http://www.medicinenet.com/circumcis...ns/article.htm

The reason to do it at infancy is because the procedure is simpler and the infant won't remember it. I don't regret having it done as a baby at all, but I wouldn't want to go through it now that I know all the joys of post-puberty and I'd remember the pain of it afterwards. Just the thought of it makes me cringe...

[Brutal Honesty]

(Original post by Steevee)
He's not a troll, these religious types honestly believe that a good enough reason to hack at your genitals is that some Arab guy did it hundreds of years ago

I thought it was a Jewish guy? I know in America it's popular for cosmetic reasons and because apparently Jesus was circumcised?

[Steevee]

(Original post by aftrglw)
It's not just a religious thing, it can be a cultural one. I'm American and I'm circumcised like most Americans. Trying to tie it to religion is unfair, just like there's tons of philosophers who are pro-life for reasons of rationality, rather than religion.

Obviously, it isn't inherently cleaner... but it does tend to be cleaner and smell less, at least if you're comparing two guys of comparable showering practices. It takes more effort to clean an uncircumcised penis, because it's not all exposed. Unless you're taking the time to clean everything well, the circumcised guy will tend to be cleaner and smell nicer. I haven't directly compared of course, but I've dated several European girls that have confirmed it.

There are of course medical reasons too:

Circumcision: Medical Pros and Cons At A Glance

Inability to retract the foreskin fully at birth is not a medical reason for a circumcision.
Circumcision prevents phimosis (the inability to retract the foreskin at an age when it should normally be retractable), paraphimosis (the painful inability to return the foreskin to its original location), and balanoposthitis (inflammation of the glans and foreskin).
Circumcision increases the chance of meatitis (inflammation of the opening of the penis).
Circumcision may result in a decreased incidence of urinary tract infections.
Circumcision may result in a lower incidence of sexually-transmitted diseases and may reduce HIV transmission.
Circumcision may lower the risk for cancer of the cervix in sexual partners.
Circumcision may decrease the risk for cancer of the penis.
There is no absolute medical indication for routine circumcision of the newborn.

You can find that article here: http://www.medicinenet.com/circumcis...ns/article.htm

The reason to do it at infancy is because the procedure is simpler and the infant won't remember it. I don't regret having it done as a baby at all, but I wouldn't want to go through it now that I know all the joys of post-puberty and I'd remember the pain of it afterwards. Just the thought of it makes me cringe...

Except proper cleaning of the Penis takes about 15 seconds, it's not something you don't have time to do. So again, I'll refer you to the hair analogy.

And I think you'll find in America, it started as a bit of a religious thing, that permeated to a social norm.

However, with a natural penis, you have the natural protection of the glans and tip. You don't get the decreased sensitivity, you don't have the problems with needed constant lubricant etc. And aside from the obvious medical issues with problems with the foreskin there are no conclusive benefits, only a lot of vauge correlations that are oft quoted by advocates of the practice.

So, to summarise. Beyond obvious medical disorders with the foreskin, 15 seconds a day gives you a perfectly clean and healthy penis, that functions better, is more sensative and has an extra layer of natural protection. Unless someone gets round to proving it recuces Cancer incidence or something, there is not one single rational argument in circumcising children.

[Steevee]

(Original post by Brutal Honesty)
I thought it was a Jewish guy? I know in America it's popular for cosmetic reasons and because apparently Jesus was circumcised?

Bearing in mind he said he did it to follow the Prophet...

Yeah, there's the cosmetic argument, there's also a lot of BS that flies around America about 'hygiene' and it being a magically way not to get AIDs and so forth. Honestly not sure about the Jesus thing.

[Chumbaniya]

It doesn't make any sense to consider circumcision and baptism as similar issues. An irreversible operation to remove part of a person's body isvery different to a special kind of bath. The reason there's an argument over circumcision isn't because of a worry over parents pressing their religion on their children - this is impossible to avoid, because any parent will want their children to believe in things they think are important, and that's fine - but because it's something that has an actual physical effect and can never be undone. If a child is baptised, they don't live with the physical effects of that baptism for the rest of their lives.

I think that often overly dramatic statements are made about the effects of circumcision (I was circumcised aged 8 for medical reasons and it really has absolutely no impact on my life) and any comparison to female genital mutilation demonstrates a lack of understanding of the relate severity of the two procedures, but that doesn't excuse the fact that using a medical procedure to alter a child's genitals for purely religious purposes is very difficult to justify, and above all deeply weird.

I find myself asking the question "What sort of a God cares about whether a baby's foreskin is removed?" and the answer isn't particularly comfortable to contemplate.

[Funtry]

Yes, for medical reasons, like I'll probably need one for my phimosis.