[sharp910sh]

(Original post by ednut)
why is it that there very few black people in higher education in london, ive been to quite a few open days to universitys and was surprised to see a few or even no black people in these institutions even in the jobs market you wont see many black people working in shops either, while if you were to go to the likes of brixton and lougborough you'll see pockets of the black community where they would stick together.
im not a racist as i am a black man myself, also unemployed.

discuss.......

I am black, black british and im not failing bought up from a poor background. yet im at uni a good uni doing civil engineering. Im getting good grades, 80% average, in my third year.

[im so academic]

(Original post by The Marshall)
How dare you say my uncle did not achieve those 34 doctorates? My Uncle did achieve it! over white racist superior thinker. So now you will claim that white students are best and oppress Asian students is it? So you're gonna start doing what they used to do too blacks students in Amercia in the 60s? White British Students are half hearted workers.

Because it's total bull****, unless you have evidence to back that up? If you're going to make such a preposterous claim like that, you should damn well be able to prove it.

[The Marshall]

(Original post by najinaji)
Exactly. This whole thing is a massive cycle.

In the past, there was no mechanism for educating oneself properly if you were a poorer person. However, it is now much easier for people to achieve, and yet they don't.

I mean, even fairly low-caste, poor Indians and Chinese have become prominent - notably in academia and business in Western countries, while black people have basically stayed as they are. This is because of a difference in attitude, part of which is probably transferred from the native countries. In India and China, it is essentially 'work hard or end up in the slums', and that attitude is transferred. However, Africans and Afro-Carribeans do not really have a similar attitude, despite their similarly poor situation.

Black people in general (particularly children) are also much more interested in distancing themselves off from the society they live in than the high-achieving Indians and Chinese. Both Indians and Chinese are very good at retaining and celebrating their native cultures, but acknowledge that they should integrate themselves into the culture that they are now a part of (hence why you see so many 'Jenny Chang's and 'Rob Patel's, but not so many 'David Odoimosu's).

work hard or end up in the slums'

That is what our attudie is based on,

[Dominic101]

GCSE RESULTS 2009 %A* to C

White 69.7

Black African 66.8
lol dem blacks be underachieving

[pokemontah!]

(Original post by The Marshall)
work hard or end up in the slums'

That is what our attudie is based on,

......and anti white racism it seems judging by some of your posts.

[The Marshall]

(Original post by im so academic)
Because it's total bull****, unless you have evidence to back that up? If you're going to make such a preposterous claim like that, you should damn well be able to prove it.

Bull****? You're white, so if any Asian wants to claim a thing like that, you simply refuse it. My uncle did achieve those 34 doctorates. His son's earning £15,000 a month working as a directive manager at one of these bio-tech companies, so don't go saying Bull****, what you'll say its impossible for a Asian man to earn 15,000 for a month then? I say bull**** that white british students are hardworking. See any of them becoming millionaires or something? I ain't gonna give you any evidence if you talk in such a rubbish tone like this.

I'll show you why Indian students are more hardworking than white students!

[The Marshall]

(Original post by pokemontah!)
......and anti white racism it seems judging by some of your posts.

Judging from many people's posts, there have been anti black racism as well. So if I say White, am I judged as a racist? Very funny, so if Asian does racisim, he is blamed for being anti - white. Why, so many Nazis and white nationalists portray their hatred for us, if we want to show something, guess what, we're racist!

[brendonbackflip]

How is this even a debate? There's been everything from work ethic to genetics discussed, yet the whole idea that black people underachieve was because "there weren't very many at the open days".

[im so academic]

(Original post by The Marshall)
Bull****? You're white, so if any Asian wants to claim a thing like that, you simply refuse it. My uncle did achieve those 34 doctorates. His son's earning £15,000 a month working as a directive manager at one of these bio-tech companies, so don't go saying Bull****, what you'll say its impossible for a Asian man to earn 15,000 for a month then? I say bull**** that white british students are hardworking. See any of them becoming millionaires or something? I ain't gonna give you any evidence if you talk in such a rubbish tone like this.

A doctorate takes a minimum of 3 years to complete.
The earliest someone would take to do a doctorate is after BSc/BA - so at 21 years old.

21 + 3 x 34 = 123.

So your uncle is 123 years old?

Bull****.

And yes, many white British students become millionaires. They come top lawyers, bankers, businessmen etc.

Obviously you're not going to give me any evidence because there is none. So how do you expect people to believe you?

[najinaji]

(Original post by brendonbackflip)
How is this even a debate? There's been everything from work ethic to genetics discussed, yet the whole idea that black people underachieve was because "there weren't very many at the open days".

It's pretty well documented, which is why we're all talking about it... if it was frivolous bull****, this thread would be long-dead.

[magicmuggle]

(Original post by The Marshall)
Bull****? You're white, so if any Asian wants to claim a thing like that, you simply refuse it. My uncle did achieve those 34 doctorates. His son's earning £15,000 a month working as a directive manager at one of these bio-tech companies, so don't go saying Bull****, what you'll say its impossible for a Asian man to earn 15,000 for a month then? I say bull**** that white british students are hardworking. See any of them becoming millionaires or something? I ain't gonna give you any evidence if you talk in such a rubbish tone like this.

I'll show you why Indian students are more hardworking than white students!

I still don't understand why you think that using the example of one family can account for an entire race - in each race, there will be more hardworking and less hardworking people. Trying to claim that you can prove anything about how hard an entire race works on the basis of a few people is just ludicrous.

You may be right, you may be wrong. But nothing you've said gives any kind of evidence either way.

[The Marshall]

(Original post by im so academic)
A doctorate takes a minimum of 3 years to complete.
The earliest someone would take to do a doctorate is after BSc/BA - so at 21 years old.

21 + 3 x 34 = 123.

So your uncle is 123 years old?

Bull****.

And yes, many white British students become millionaires. They come top lawyers, bankers, businessmen etc.

Obviously you're not going to give me any evidence because there is none. So how do you expect people to believe you?

When you speak in a rubbish tone like this, I am not going to talk with you. Using the word bull****. Stop using that word will you? What, you're gonnna insult me and the rest of my family using this damn word? No, unless you stop using the word, I ain't gonna talk with a ******* up idiot like you.

[doggyfizzel]

Have people actually looked that the stats? Pretty sure they are overly represented at Universities. 3.2% of students are black, a triple in the last decade, I don't think they comprise more than 3% of the population (less than 2 in 2001). Blacks are the second highest represented minority group behind British Indians. Bangladeshi's and Pakistani's are the most underrepresented groups.

Its also parental pressure, a doctors or solicitor's kids are more likely to be assumed to be attending university than the kids of second generation immigrants. Schools and such are also important, depending on how much pressure there is to inform students and make them aware of their goals.

[Phantom Lord]

A higher percentage of Black Africans go to University than White.
When talking about Black people in the UK it's best to divide them into African and Caribbean. Black African families tend to be stable two parent families and their kids actually get a bit above average GCSE's and go to uni, whereas I don't mean to generalise but it's kind of the opposite for Caribbean families on average. But what's more confusing is that according to poverty statistics black Africans are in poverty more than black Caribbean people.

[The Marshall]

(Original post by magicmuggle)
I still don't understand why you think that using the example of one family can account for an entire race - in each race, there will be more hardworking and less hardworking people. Trying to claim that you can prove anything about how hard an entire race works on the basis of a few people is just ludicrous.

Let me show you:


ndian students rank second-last in global test. Who to blame?
anshultewari January 15
Indian students rank second-last in global test. Better only than kyrgyzstan in math, reading, science - TOI front page report. Who is to be blamed? The education system?

Do you think this report is really true?
ramanuj January 15
You know i do not agree with this report completely as in the last few years Indian kids have won Spelling Bees throughout the world and have won Maths Olympiads in the global arena and at every moment we see Barack Obama actually inspiring American kids to be like Indian students and Chinese students and it is a competition of a particular age group where i feel the best were not chosen to compete
RoopaliBansal January 15

Obviously the education system is to be blamed.

But instead of blaming we should start thinking about steps that could improve our education. Time to think about "ME" and "people around ME"
RoopaliBansal January 15

@ramanuj Do you really think winning a competition improves our education standard ?
anshultewari January 15
Good point, @RoopaliBansal. But I also do agree a bit with @ramanuj. While Indian students are supposedly the best engineers, I wonder what parameters this report considers.
anshultewari January 15
The link to the TOI article is here:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/h...w/11492508.cms
AmitabhPatra January 15
The education system imposed upon, without teachers, only infrastructure, India will be nowhere.
After the privatisation and liberalisation, quality education is now affordable only to a particular sector of people, not the common people. Hence that is creating a more illiterate, certified generation of youngsters, who do not get knowledge for their life. They are only getting certificates, without exams leaving behind all scopes of proper education.

As education is now a commodity ( product of capitalist economy) hence people with money will only be able to afford it, rest - be certified illiterates.
Neelesh January 15

Well , I pretty much agree with what @ramanuj and @anshultewari have mentioned.
I dont agree with this report , I mean I know the education system is flawed and blah and blah but second last rank ? That is exhaggerating it a bit too much. Dont know what parameters they had and what students they had chosen
Indian students are well known for being hardworking. Indian engineeers , doctors and Management consultants are spread throughout the world and they are good at their job. Take an example of any reputed MNC and you will surely find atleast one Indian on one of the top positions.
Aditya January 28

We should accept the fact that India is not doing well in the field of education. CBSE exam standard has degraded. Some students are performing well, but on an overall basis we are lagging. Indian engg, doctors are hard working but still even they cant compete against top college students.
If hard work would have been the key to success then donkey would have been the king of jungle.
We work really hard but is it in right direction?
Eg. There is a system in foreign universities, in which, there are open book tests or in other words formula and all cramming stuff is provided to them during the test. There students are tested on basis of their application part and not on the basis of their cramming power.
Here in India if we need to crack any exam then we spend 50% or even more time in cramming formula. In exams questions are like if you know the formula then questions are just direct application of formula otherwise you cant solve them.
Neelesh January 29

Well yes only hardwork cannot do it . The education system is also faulty but I guess better than many other countries.


Q. Have you signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with any Indian B-School?
In the past couple of years, we have been exploring relationships with various schools in India, including IIM-Bangalore, MDI-New Delhi, and IIT-Delhi. We have signed a letter of intent with MDI, and we are in the process of finalizing a Memorandum of Agreement. A group of our MBA students visit India as part of their “global immersion” program and attend class sessions organized for us by MDI and IITD. Over the next few years, we expect to undertake the following activities with our partner schools in India:
Faculty exchanges to support both research and teaching
Joint projects between MBA students at Smeal and students at partner schools
Joint MBA case discussions via live video link
Student exchange program in which a small group of students from each school will spend part of, or a whole, semester at the partner school

Q. Are you planning to tie-up with any other b-school in India?
Not at present

Q. Which one is the most popular program at your b-school?
Finance, Marketing, and Supply Chain are typically very popular. All of our programs are designed to add value to students who have had prior experience/qualification in management. We also have several research centers (e.g., Institute for the Study of Business Markets, Center for Supply Chain Research, and Farrell Center for Corporate Innovation and Entrepreneurship, among several others) which help our MBA students connect with companies during their MBA program, working on projects and internships.

Q. How many seats do you have for the Executive MBA and full time MBA? What is the percentage of Indian students for the current batch?
For the full-time Smeal MBA, 15 percent of the class is from India (29 of 191). For the class of 2012, 18 percent of the class is from India (19 of 107).

The Smeal Executive MBA Program, which meets during weekends and for a few specific weeks during the year, has about 50-60 seats. Between 4 and 8 percent are of Indian descent.

Q. How do you see India in terms of management education?
India has a few world-class management schools. However, the quality falls off rapidly once you get beyond these top schools. As Indian companies spread their wings globally, there will be a tremendous shortage of locally grown managerial talent, unless there are more top-tier management schools in India to educate and train managers to fill the many positions that will open up. There is also an acute shortage of research faculty in India. Without a research culture in a management school, it is difficult to separate education from training and storytelling. Also, theoretical and applied research provides the frameworks for educating students for tomorrow’s challenges and opportunities.

Q. How would you rate Indian students on a scale of 10?
Like any group, there are some great students and some not so great students from India. Generally, we find that students from India have good educational backgrounds and are hard working. Where there could be some better preparation is in communication and team skills.

Q. What is the basic eligibility criteria for international candidates looking forward at doing Executive MBA and Full time MBA?
For the full-time Smeal MBA Program, please see our International Applicant Requirements website. Generally speaking, our online application requires three essays, two transcripts, two recommendations, GMAT (our average is 650), TOEFL of 100/20 speaking minimum or IELTS of 7.0 minimum, and finally an interview by invitation.

For admission into the Smeal Executive MBA Program, we require a completed pre-assessment form, a current résumé, two recommendations, original transcripts of undergraduate and any graduate coursework, two 750-1000-word essays, and an interview. Successful EMBA candidates will generally have at least 1-2 years of post-undergraduate work experience and a desire to move up or into senior management. We don’t require a GMAT for admission to the EMBA program, but certain applicants may be asked to take the exam. More information on the EMBA admissions process can be found here.

Q. What is the fee structure for full time MBA as well as executive MBA, including living expenses?
Tuition and expenses for the full-time Smeal MBA Program can be found on our Tuition and Financial Support page and are currently (in USD):


Estimated Expenses for the 2010-2011 Academic Year
Expenses
Out-of-state Residents
Tuition
$32,898
Fees
$838
Orientation Fees
$140
Communications Course
$60
Room, Board, & Personal (estimated)
$17,400
Laptop Computer
$1,300 - $2,200
Books & Supplies
$1,600 - $1,800
Global Immersion (first-year only)
$1,700


The Smeal EMBA program currently costs $93,000 USD and includes tuition, textbooks, basic supplies, specialized course software, as well as all meals and lodging for overnight stays associated with the program. More information on EMBA fees can be found here.

Q. Do you even offer scholarships to extraordinarily meritorious students as well as international students? Do you provide any financial assistance to international students?
A Penn State Smeal MBA (full-time) pays for itself within 4.3 years according to Forbes' 2009 rankings. Our costs are comparatively low, and our graduates yield competitive salaries, making the Smeal MBA a great investment.

Smeal offers scholarships and assistantships to many students each year. They are awarded based on merit using the admission-process criteria that considers academic ability, work experience, leadership skills, and overall fit with the program. All applicants are automatically considered for funding and there is no additional application for these awards. For full consideration, candidates should apply by the financial aid deadline.

Q. What are your future plans for the institute?
Smeal and Penn State have been on an upward trajectory during the past 10-15 years, which will continue in the future. A recent Wall Street Journal article ranked Penn State as the number one school in the United States for corporate recruiters. Apart from our MBA program, we also have a large undergraduate business program with about 4,500 students, and also a large Ph.D. program with 80 students. Our strategic goal is to be a top-five public business school. A top public school in the U.S. provides affordable high quality education, especially as compared to top private schools. In many respects, we already have top-five status among public schools on several dimensions. Our Supply Chain and Management Departments are ranked in the top 5 among all schools on several criteria. Our other departments are also world class. In the years ahead, we will continue to build on our strengths to be a renowned and vibrant learning community that prepares students for the leadership challenges of tomorrow.

Concluded.

On his first visit to India, Prof Lovell is “appalled” by the “highly deplorable” incidents because he feels “in Australia the general perception about Indians is that they are hardworking, non-offensive, mild natured, friendly people.” According to him, these attacks may have been racist in nature apart from being opportunistic crime. He explains, “Indian students attain substantial academic success and are a hard working lot; many of them may take up part-time jobs to meet their expenses. There is some amount of bitterness among the local population about such jobs going to the emigrants and students from outside. This bitterness combined with racist overtones and an inclination to commit crime may well be the reason leading to these attacks. Indian students working at odd hours and preferring the congested distant suburbs for the advantage of lower rents may have made them a vulnerable population.”

Rough estimates indicate one out of every five people in Australia is born outside it. This is not the first time the word racism is being attached to Australia. Prof Lovell hints racism might have a stronger history in Australia. “Australia is essentially an emigrant population, having begun as a European colony,” he says. Geographically it has a strange and distant location, thus always creating a sense of insecurity arising out of the constant fear of isolation. Australia has seen waves of emigrants from the Southern Europeans in 50s to the South East Asians in 70s and Chinese and Middle Eastern Muslims in 80/90s. Children of these emigrants are known to have performed brilliantly making best use of opportunities offered by the government. “Few decades ago we did have a notorious ‘White Australia’ policy, but thankfully now we have an official multi-cultural acceptance policy,” says the professor who feels that Australians are accommodating towards emigrants. Referring to politics-his area of expertise, Prof Lovell admits that Australia has ignored the ‘Giant’ that India is. His concern is evident when he says “India does not have the profile it deserves in Australia”.

On his first visit to India to explore possibilities of establishing links with the Manipal University in the field of Geopolitics and International Relations, Prof Lovell feels India and Australia should be logical partners. Listing facts that can act as ‘synergies’ between India and Australia, Prof Lovell points out that both nations are democracies, communicate easily in English, are open market economies apart from being essentially cricket crazy nations. One then wonders how China grew to be Australia’s strongest trade partner. Not just trade, more than 130-140 thousand Chinese students are pursuing their higher education in Australia.

Prof Lovell feels China opened up to the world much before India did and Australia caught up with it. “With China having a communist and authoritative background, a democratic and free market India is a better choice any day,” says Prof Lovell hinting that Australia needs to pay more attention to the situation in the Indian sub-continent and acknowledge the larger role India plays in Asia Pacific Security.

At Manipal University, Prof Lovell held talks with the head of department of Geopolitics Dr Aravind Kumar to establish academic links in areas like maritime security, nuclear issues, weapons of mass destruction, regional security architecture, international relations and global politics. The Manipal University already has a Memorandum of Understanding with the University of New South Wales which was ranked at 45 in the much-acclaimed Times List of World’s Best Universities last year. He also met Dr M V Kamath to discuss student and faculty exchanges between the Journalism and mass communication colleges of the two Universities.

[im so academic]

(Original post by The Marshall)
When you speak in a rubbish tone like this, I am not going to talk with you. Using the word bull****. Stop using that word will you? What, you're gonnna insult me and the rest of my family using this damn word? No, unless you stop using the word, I ain't gonna talk with a ******* up idiot like you.

Rubbish tone? That doesn't even make sense.

I'm not insulting you or your family. I'm trying to say that your claim that your uncle did 34 doctorates is untrue.

[The Marshall]

Now open your mouth. Common, prove too me that Asian students are lazy, stupid and intorebale, as you have established here, and that white students are the best and outrank every single of them.

[The Marshall]

(Original post by im so academic)
Rubbish tone? That doesn't even make sense.

I'm not insulting you or your family. I'm trying to say that your claim that your uncle did 34 doctorates is untrue.

Bull****! Thats the word you're using, I refuse to talk to you. Bull****, Bhai, go use your brain and do exams!

[JollyGreenAtheist]

It should be emphasised that 'black people' is ambiguous; there are black africans and black caribbeans. Black africans perform better than black caribbeans. Moreover, Bangladeshi students also perform poorly, alongside Pakistani students. However, educational achievement should not be taken in isolation to other factors, such as gender and social class; white working class boys achieve the lowest out of every social group in the UK at GCSE level.

There are several schools of thought on why ethnic minorities achieve poorly, and they can be divided into internal factors and external factors; that is, factors within the education system, and factors in wider society.

Internal factors: - Marketing and selection policies - since 1988, schools are marketised, and they draw on stereotypical images to sell themselves to consumers. For example, a public school that sends a load of kids to Oxbridge or gets loads of A/A*s is highly unlikely to have a group of black boys in hoodies on the front, just because it would create an unfavourable image for the school. The stereotypes get perpetuated within the system, and this ostracises and alienates minorities, also discouraging them from high academic achievement.

- Labelling. Numerous studies conducted by sociologists like Kituse and Cicourel found that teachers label students, who go onto the 'self-fulfilling prophecy', where they actualise their labels. Studies found that teachers label black students as 'aggressive' and asian students as 'slow, and unable to grasp the language', although statistics show that Indian and Chinese students are the highest achieving ethnic group in the UK at GCSE level, which somewhat dispels this.

- The ethnocentric curriculum. Some suggest that the curriculum is geared exclusively towards white british culture and language, thereby alienating minorities.

- Institutional racism. Various studies found that schools do not provide adequate measures for students whose parents speak another language, making communication between parents and teachers difficult. Also, cases of racist bullying and abuse are giving low priority in terms of punishment and resolving.

External factors: - Material deprivation. 15% of ethnic minorities live in overcrowded and inadequate housing, compared to 2% of white people. This leads to respiratory illnesses associated with damp, an inability to work in a quiet space, lack of exercise and a lack of privacy. Ethnic minorities also tend to be from more deprived areas and lack the funds for a sufficient diet for students. Marylin Howard linked a lack of vitamins and nutrients to underachievement due to in inability to concentrate. Additionally, lack of funds means that students are discouraged from university, cannot afford text books, calculators, stationary, school trips and can be subject to bullying.

- Racism in wider society. A study was conducted by John Rex into racism in the workplace. He sent in two identical CVs to a job, with only the name being different - one was Mr. Smith, one was Mr. Singh. This was repeated with several employers and Mr. Smith was employed ~70% of the time. Other studies have linked racism to social exclusion and bullying.

- Cultural deprivation. There is a suggestion that the attitudes & values and language of ethnic minorities is inadequate for success. Some argue that black students are socialised into fatalistic subcultures. Black families are more likely to be single-mother headed, which Charles Murray argued to cause delinquency because of a lack of male role model, and David Moynihan argued led to material deprivation because single mothers could not earn enough to sustain their children. Some criticise black language, as being responsible for underachievement, although most black students can speak english well, and indian and chinese students achieve very well despite english not necessarily being their first language. The major critic of cultural deprivation theorists is Nell Keddie, who argued that one cannot be deprived of one's own culture; ethnic minorities are culturally different but not deprived - the system should accommodate and integrate them as best they can.

So, those are the arguments. Let's have less "black people don't try hard enough" or "it's genetic"; assertions which are largely unsubstantiated, arguably racist and frankly moronic.

[The Marshall]

(Original post by JollyGreenAtheist)
It should be emphasised that 'black people' is ambiguous; there are black africans and black caribbeans. Black africans perform better than black caribbeans. Moreover, Bangladeshi students also perform poorly, alongside Pakistani students. However, educational achievement should not be taken in isolation to other factors, such as gender and social class; white working class boys achieve the lowest out of every social group in the UK at GCSE level.

There are several schools of thought on why ethnic minorities achieve poorly, and they can be divided into internal factors and external factors; that is, factors within the education system, and factors in wider society.

Internal factors: - Marketing and selection policies - since 1988, schools are marketised, and they draw on stereotypical images to sell themselves to consumers. For example, a public school that sends a load of kids to Oxbridge or gets loads of A/A*s is highly unlikely to have a group of black boys in hoodies on the front, just because it would create an unfavourable image for the school. The stereotypes get perpetuated within the system, and this ostracises and alienates minorities, also discouraging them from high academic achievement.

- Labelling. Numerous studies conducted by sociologists like Kituse and Cicourel found that teachers label students, who go onto the 'self-fulfilling prophecy', where they actualise their labels. Studies found that teachers label black students as 'aggressive' and asian students as 'slow, and unable to grasp the language', although statistics show that Indian and Chinese students are the highest achieving ethnic group in the UK at GCSE level, which somewhat dispels this.

- The ethnocentric curriculum. Some suggest that the curriculum is geared exclusively towards white british culture and language, thereby alienating minorities.

- Institutional racism. Various studies found that schools do not provide adequate measures for students whose parents speak another language, making communication between parents and teachers difficult. Also, cases of racist bullying and abuse are giving low priority in terms of punishment and resolving.

External factors: - Material deprivation. 15% of ethnic minorities live in overcrowded and inadequate housing, compared to 2% of white people. This leads to respiratory illnesses associated with damp, an inability to work in a quiet space, lack of exercise and a lack of privacy. Ethnic minorities also tend to be from more deprived areas and lack the funds for a sufficient diet for students. Marylin Howard linked a lack of vitamins and nutrients to underachievement due to in inability to concentrate. Additionally, lack of funds means that students are discouraged from university, cannot afford text books, calculators, stationary, school trips and can be subject to bullying.

- Racism in wider society. A study was conducted by John Rex into racism in the workplace. He sent in two identical CVs to a job, with only the name being different - one was Mr. Smith, one was Mr. Singh. This was repeated with several employers and Mr. Smith was employed ~70% of the time. Other studies have linked racism to social exclusion and bullying.

- Cultural deprivation. There is a suggestion that the attitudes & values and language of ethnic minorities is inadequate for success. Some argue that black students are socialised into fatalistic subcultures. Black families are more likely to be single-mother headed, which Charles Murray argued to cause delinquency because of a lack of male role model, and David Moynihan argued led to material deprivation because single mothers could not earn enough to sustain their children. Some criticise black language, as being responsible for underachievement, although most black students can speak english well, and indian and chinese students achieve very well despite english not necessarily being their first language. The major critic of cultural deprivation theorists is Nell Keddie, who argued that one cannot be deprived of one's own culture; ethnic minorities are culturally different but not deprived - the system should accommodate and integrate them as best they can.

So, those are the arguments. Let's have less "black people don't try hard enough" or "it's genetic"; assertions which are largely unsubstantiated, arguably racist and frankly moronic.

Finally, some who has some common sense! A well thought out answer.