[CollateralElement]

Abu Ghraib Torture. It's a huge backhanded slap across too many nations.

I know. I know the information, maybe not enough still but I'm hearing all these different views...

But what are you thinking about it? What if you're religious... Muslim, for example, what did you think when you heard about this?

Were you praying? Were you angry? Were you upset? Were you bemused?

And anyone else from other religions? Like Christianity?

Or even Atheists.

I was horrified. Really. Completely shocked by what these people had done to the prisoners and then some when I saw the pictures!

Here's the link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghr...prisoner_abuse

Hmm?

[Roaroaroar]

Prisoners have rarely historically been treated with respect and dignity, especially prisoners of war, they've had it very very very rough historically. The military is all about command. Even though the soldiers are adults, they're trained to rely on their superiors. It's all about being in a team and that team has a chain of command. This is where the concept of deindividuation applies, you start to lose your self-awareness. Look at the London riots for example. In groups, humans can commit a helluva lot of atrocities from mass rapings (Woodstock 1999) to mass killings (holocaust etc). All you need is a trigger. In this case, the trigger was two sadistic individuals i.e. Lynndie England and Charles Graner.

We'd like to believe humans are smart and not primitive and have free will and can't be influenced by external influences and everything is as simple as someone being a bad guy but it's not, truth is anyone one of us can be a bad guy.

[cl_steele]

may i ask what this has to do with religion? isnt this more of a human rights issue?

[ufo2012]

The troops were bored and frustrated.

[Steevee]

Not overly horrified to be honest.

What happened was very wrong though, and reflects badly on the whole US Army, which is bad. Feel for the prisoners too, as by all accounts some of them did not deserve to be there.

A sad situation caused by a few sadistic individuals that managed to find themselves in a habitat where they could indulge themselves.

[miser]

I would very much recommend a book by Philip Zombardo called The Lucifer Effect. Zimbardo is the man who conducted the Stanford prison experiment which concerns itself with the effects of authority when it is granted to one group of people to be exercised over another. Zimbardo also testified as a psychologist in the trial of the soldiers that conducted the activities in the Abu Ghraib prison. His book is about how it is not that people are either moral or immoral, but rather it is situations which conspire to make people act one way or the other.

In the case of Abu Ghraib, it was more a case that the factors of putting untrained army soldiers who had lost friends in conflict with the people whom they were prison guarding, were simply by circumstance predispositioned to act cruelly to those people, rather than the soldiers being of an evil disposition. There were a great many other factors which also came together to push for this outcome: the soldiers were placed under heavy stress, working long hours, there was minimal outside supervision, and so on, and all of these factors converged to make a situation such that this outcome was the only one that could have been expected.

[CollateralElement]

(Original post by Roaroaroar)
Prisoners have rarely historically been treated with respect and dignity, especially prisoners of war, they've had it very very very rough historically. The military is all about command. Even though the soldiers are adults, they're trained to rely on their superiors. It's all about being in a team and that team has a chain of command. This is where the concept of deindividuation applies, you start to lose your self-awareness. Look at the London riots for example. In groups, humans can commit a helluva lot of atrocities from mass rapings (Woodstock 1999) to mass killings (holocaust etc). All you need is a trigger. In this case, the trigger was two sadistic individuals i.e. Lynndie England and Charles Graner.

We'd like to believe humans are smart and not primitive and have free will and can't be influenced by external influences and everything is as simple as someone being a bad guy but it's not, truth is anyone one of us can be a bad guy.

I went in to their biography - Lynndie England and Charles Graner and the military generals too... I stared at their pictures and then turned to the images of them with the abused... I cannot being to comprehend the amount of disgust that filled me.

They were smiling while the detainee was writhing on the floor with blood around his knees and groin, a bag on his head and hands handcuffed behind him.

How horrible must it have been for their family to see those pictures?

There are articles of Iraqi women having being detained - been abused too.

[CollateralElement]

(Original post by miser)
I would very much recommend a book by Philip Zombardo called The Lucifer Effect. Zimbardo is the man who conducted the Stanford prison experiment which concerns itself with the effects of authority when it is granted to one group of people to be exercised over another. Zimbardo also testified as a psychologist in the trial of the soldiers that conducted the activities in the Abu Ghraib prison. His book is about how it is not that people are either moral or immoral, but rather it is situations which conspire to make people act one way or the other.

In the case of Abu Ghraib, it was more a case that the factors of putting untrained army soldiers who had lost friends in conflict with the people whom they were prison guarding, were simply by circumstance predispositioned to act cruelly to those people, rather than the soldiers being of an evil disposition. There were a great many other factors which also came together to push for this outcome: the soldiers were placed under heavy stress, working long hours, there was minimal outside supervision, and so on, and all of these factors converged to make a situation such that this outcome was the only one that could have been expected.

Yes, after doing psychology, it has an explanation - not entire and not one that I completely agree with but... It has an explanation that helps give an understanding of why all this happened.

However, I must say, Philip Zimbardo isn't all that reliable when you compare other research against him. It is simply that his experiment on Deindividuation and Conformity, was infamous for all the ethical codes it had broken. That's it. When reconstructed, his results were completely off.

That's as much as I regard it to be anyway.

Deindividuation isn't a good enough explanation for this. It's reductionist and determinist and fails to explain why amongst the mongrels and guards, there were still people in authority that were blatantly helping the detainees by providing autonomity etc - still didn't do something about the abuse.

There was a lady in the women's cell block - infamous for its abuse and torture, who helped but did nothing when they were dragged off and sexually assaulted.

You know.. Just saying... I could be wrong but...

[CollateralElement]

(Original post by Steevee)
Not overly horrified to be honest.

What happened was very wrong though, and reflects badly on the whole US Army, which is bad. Feel for the prisoners too, as by all accounts some of them did not deserve to be there.

A sad situation caused by a few sadistic individuals that managed to find themselves in a habitat where they could indulge themselves.

Couldn't agree more.. But surely there must've been something going on up there in the higher offices too, right? This institution was funded, therefore required authorization = regular checks and all that...

People outside of the institution would've known too?

[cl_steele]

(Original post by CollateralElement)
There is a quote in one of the articles where a guard had forced a detainee to curse his religion and praise Jesus instead for....etc. by repeatedly pounding at his broken leg..

Also another, where the man is told to curse his religion - islam - so the abuser would stop assaulting him...

Etc.

What's your view on that? I mean, I'd dare ask, what would you do now had you cursed your own religion because of someone else? Being from a christian background, it's better to die for your religion than curse it, isn't it?

I'm sure the morals apply somewhere in Islam too.

again though id argue that it would still more be human rights abuse than simple religion bashing, whilst it definitely does include that, i think its more just the sadistic guards trying to degrade these people in the most hurtful means possible and if that be religion then so be it, there were also those rather sickening cases that came to light of guards putting hoods on the inmates and threatening to execute them and making them perform sex acts on each other ... truly vile and sadistic but id put the religion bashing more down to pure sadism and trying to crush any morale these people have than an outright hatred of Islam.
My view on it though, its truly repugnant and the guards should be shown a dose of their own medicine for what theyve done but other than that, not being an overly religious sort, im not entirely sure.

[CollateralElement]

(Original post by cl_steele)
again though id argue that it would still more be human rights abuse than simple religion bashing, whilst it definitely does include that, i think its more just the sadistic guards trying to degrade these people in the most hurtful means possible and if that be religion then so be it, there were also those rather sickening cases that came to light of guards putting hoods on the inmates and threatening to execute them and making them perform sex acts on each other ... truly vile and sadistic but id put the religion bashing more down to pure sadism and trying to crush any morale these people have than an outright hatred of Islam.
My view on it though, its truly repugnant and the guards should be shown a dose of their own medicine for what theyve done but other than that, not being an overly religious sort, im not entirely sure.

Ah. I see. That's a fair point. Religion being used as a weapon against them... Those abused are going to be scarred for life. I don't think anyone can come out of a psychological trauma as that - properly...

:/ I do too but then it's like sinking down to their level. I just wish the US didn't become so quick to hide everything... it just made them look even more guilty...

Ah. I'm rambling now.

[ckingalt]

(Original post by Steevee)
Not overly horrified to be honest.

What happened was very wrong though, and reflects badly on the whole US Army, which is bad. Feel for the prisoners too, as by all accounts some of them did not deserve to be there.

A sad situation caused by a few sadistic individuals that managed to find themselves in a habitat where they could indulge themselves.

This.... However it really annoys me how the how the much the level of abuse has been exaggerated. I have yet to see one photograph that reflects what I would consider torture.

I think Abu Ghraib harassment is a more accurate description.

[SaharaDesert]

(Original post by ckingalt)
This.... However it really annoys me how the how the much the level of abuse has been exaggerated. I have yet to see one photograph that reflects what I would consider torture.

I think Abu Ghraib harassment is a more accurate description.

I'd hate to know what you do consider as "torture" then.

[exe]

Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein.

[ckingalt]

(Original post by SaharaDesert)
I'd hate to know what you do consider as "torture" then.

Pliers, blowtorches, electric shock, rape, amputation, mutilation, and etc....

Basically just think of the methods the Taliban and Al Qaeda would use if the roles were reversed.

[SaharaDesert]

(Original post by ckingalt)
Pliers, blowtorches, electric shock, rape, amputation, mutilation, and etc....

Basically just think of the methods the Taliban and Al Qaeda would use if the roles were reversed.

• Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet.
• Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees.
• Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing.
• Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time.
• Forcing naked male detainees to wear women's underwear.
• Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate while being photographed and videotaped.
• Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them.
• Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture.
• Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee's neck and having a female soldier pose for a picture.
• A male MP guard raping a female detainee.
• Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees and MPs posing with cheerful looks.
• Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees.
• Threatening detainees with a loaded 9mm pistol.
• Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair.
• Threatening male detainees with rape.
• Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell.
• Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.
• Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting and severely injuring a detainee.

Link.

Several of them died.
Of course that is torture.

[justmyopinions]

Honestly...
when I first heard I didn't care. I thought "just another terrorist, serves him right". But then I thought, if he was tortured (remember, he might not have been), he may have given false information. We need to catch the right guys, therefore information from torture isn't helping us in the fight against terrorism. Through history, we see many examples of people given false information through torture, which, technically, is a miscarriage of justice, the guilty need to be caught, not the innocent taking the place of the guilty...

But then I get angry, because, if the taliban or al queda had us or our family members then we would suffer much worse, we would be beheaded. But then again I have to remember that this guy may be innocent (they wouldn't have arrested him for no reason, but he might be innocent). So it really confuses my morals, this topic.

[Steevee]

(Original post by CollateralElement)
Couldn't agree more.. But surely there must've been something going on up there in the higher offices too, right? This institution was funded, therefore required authorization = regular checks and all that...

People outside of the institution would've known too?

Not really.

I imagine these people kept things in proper order when there were inspections, and if they were caught out, it was probably labelled 'punishment', eyebrows were raised, but I doubt the full extent of the situation was known to any but those involved.