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Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia out of control

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    Seemingly every edict coming from this influential Sunni cleric seems to be shockingly medieval.

    The most recent edict coming from this Holy office:
    http://www.rt.com/news/peninsula-saudi-grand-mufti-701/

    But the most shocking thing I've come upon was the opinion of the previous office holder, Abd al-Aziz ibn Abd Allah ibn Baaz, stating the sun revolved around the earth and anyone who said otherwise was an infidel.

    WIKI Entry:
    In 1966, when Ibn Baz was vice-president of the Islamic University of Medina, he wrote an article denouncing Riyadh University for teaching the "falsehood" that the earth rotates and orbits the sun: "The Holy Quran, the Prophet's teaching and the majority of Islamic scientists prove...that the sun is running in its orbit and...that the earth is fixed and stable".[17] King Faisal was reportedly so angered by this statement he ordered the burning of all copies of the article.[17] In 1982 Ibn Baz published a book, Jarayan al-shams wa'l qamar wa-sukan al-ard ("The Motion of the Sun and the Moon and the Stationarity of the Earth"), in which he repeated his belief that the sun orbited the earth.[18] He threatened all who did not accept his view with a fatwa of takfir, declaring them infidels.[19] Ibn Baz did not change his mind until 1985 when Prince Sultan bin Salman returned home after a week aboard the space shuttle Discovery to tell him that he had seen the earth rotate.[17]
    The hadiths support this claim:
    The following hadeeth does indicate that though:
    It is narrated on the authority of Abu Dharr that the Messenger of Allaah (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) one day said: Do you know where the sun goes? They replied: Allaah and His Prophet know best. He (the Prophet) observed: Verily it (the sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is asked: Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the Throne and falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything ( unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it would be said to it: Rise up and emerge out from the place of your setting, and it will rise from the place of its setting. The Messenger of Allaah (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) said. Do you know when it would happen? It would happen at the time when faith will not benefit one who has not previously believed or has derived no good from the faith.
    [Sahih Muslim: No. 297]

    While I'm glad he finally recanted his beliefs, it's shocking that a Muslim cleric of such influence in this modern age of science would make such an ignorant statement. And he wasn't just any influential cleric, he was the GRAND MUFTI and highest spiritual authority of Saudi Arabia, birthplace of Islam.
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    that's it keep up the spirit...... <.< thread 4 and counting
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    LOL You must be extremely bored.
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    (Original post by Bukhatir)
    that's it keep up the spirit...... <.< thread 4 and counting

    Do you struggle with counting? Where are the other 2?
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    (Original post by Bukhatir)
    that's it keep up the spirit...... <.< thread 4 and counting
    These guys normally last 2-4 days before getting banned, I recall the last one was called "Last_of_us" or something
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    SA is run by Wahabbi nutters - we all know this. This not news or thread worthy.
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    To be honest, i have come to expect this kind of crap from Saudi Arabia. It doesnt shock me in the slightest.

    "Medieval" is far too generous a term. The collective intelligence of the Saudi elites has yet to evolve beyond that of an amoeba, in my opinion.
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    (Original post by Greenlaner)
    To be honest, i have come to expect this kind of crap from Saudi Arabia. It doesnt shock me in the slightest.

    "Medieval" is far too generous a term. The collective intelligence of the Saudi elites has yet to evolve beyond that of an amoeba, in my opinion.

    I'm still shocked every time, I just have a hard time imagining people who can believe this. I remember reading a recent article from Saudi Arabia, apparently a council of religious scholars came together and published a study saying that allowing women to drive in Saudi Arabia would result in an increase of "prostitution and homosexuality" in that country. There society is being held hostage by mad clerics!
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    Influencial? What? He passed away almost 13 years ago (May Allah bless him). He was influential in Saudi but not the world.

    I think in fairness he lost a lot of respect/influence the moment he broke the rules and let the American's land in the Holy Land. I heard he has repented for though. What he said about the Earth being flat is also a mis-representation of what he said. He used Ibn Tayimmah(ra) as proof that he supports that the Earth is round.

    And this is a lie;

    He threatened all who did not accept his view with a fatwa of takfir, declaring them infidels.
    He said you don't have to believe the Sun orbits the earth. However, if you believe the Sun is stationary (that it does not move or have an orbit of some sort) then you are a kaafir. This is because the verse is Muttashaabih (unclear) so there would be differing opinions, but one thing he said is clear is that the verse indicates that the Sun has its own orbit and all Muslims should believe this (it's supported by science anyways).

    And finally, scholars are not infallible, they make mistakes.

    (Original post by ExMuslim)
    [Sahih Muslim: No. 297]
    This has been dis proven here -



    Answered by the Scientific Research Committee - IslamToday.net

    We must look carefully at the texts in question to determine exactly what those texts are saying, and equally importantly, what they are not saying.

    This hadîth is found in Sahîh al-Bukhârî (3199, 7424). Its text, as related by Abû Dharr al-Ghifârî, is as follows:


    The Prophet (peace be upon him) said to me: “O Abû Dharr! Do you know where the Sun goes when it sets?”

    I said: “Allah and His Messenger know best.”

    He said: “It goes until it prostrates beneath the Throne. Then it seeks permission and permission is granted to it. Soon it will prostrate and it will not be accepted from it, and seek permission and will not be granted permission. It will be said to it: ‘Go back where you came from.’ Then it will rise from its setting place. This is Allah’s statement: ‘And the Sun runs on to its place of settlement. That is the determination of the Mighty the Knowing. [Sûrah YâSîn: 38]’.”

    It is also found in Sahîh Muslim (159,205). Its text, as related by Abû Dharr al-Ghifârî, is as follows:


    The Prophet (peace be upon him) said one day: “Do you know where the Sun goes when it sets?”

    They said: “Allah and His Messenger know best.”

    He said: “It goes until it arrives at its place of settlement beneath the Throne. Then it falls down in prostration and remains like that until it is said to it: ‘Arise! Go back from whence you came.’ Then it goes back and rises from its place of rising. Then it goes until it arrives at its place of settlement beneath the Throne. Then it falls down in prostration and remains like that until it is said to it: ‘Arise! Go back from whence you came.’ Then it goes back and rises from its place of rising. Then it goes without people finding anything wrong with it until it arrives at that place of settlement it has beneath the throne. Then it will be told: ‘Arise! Enter upon the morning rising from your setting place’.”

    Then Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said: “Do you know when that will be? It will be when ‘its faith will not avail a soul which had not believed before or earned some good from its faith. [Sûrah al-An`âm: 157]’.”

    The hadîth is also found in Sahîh al-Bukhârî in a highly abridged form (4803, 7433). Its text reads:


    I asked the Prophet (peace be upon him) about Allah’s statement: “And the Sun runs on to its place of settlement... [Sûrah YâSîn: 38]”.

    He said: “Its place of settlement is beneath the throne.”

    Ibn Hajar al-`Asqalânî, in Fath al-Bârî, his commentary on Sahîh al-Bukhârî, writes:


    This was how Wakî` related it from al-A`mash in an abbreviated form. It is a narration by meaning. In the previous narration of the hadîth, the Prophet (peace be upon him) asked Abû Dharr: “Do you know where the Sun goes when it sets?” [Fath al-Bârî (8/688)]

    The first point that we need to consider is that nowhere in any of these texts is it mentioned that the Sun is revolving around the Earth. The word used for the Sun’s motion in all of these texts is the verb “tajrî” meaning “to go, flow, proceed”. This verb is not qualified by any other words indicating a spherical motion of any kind or any specific type of motion relative to the Earth.

    The second point that we must consider is that nowhere does the hadîth discuss the mechanics of the Sun’s motion or the mechanics of how that motion will change when the Sun rises from the West.

    Thirdly, the place of settlement mentioned in the hadîth is beneath the throne and not under the Earth.

    What we know scientifically about the Sun is that it is indeed in motion. It is traveling around the center of the galaxy at roughly 220 km/s in an orbit that takes about 230 million years to complete.

    It may be interesting to take note of the fact that the Qur’ân mentions an orbital motion for the Sun. Allah says: “It is not for the Sun to overtake the Moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.” [Sûrah YâSîn: 40] However, the verse says nothing about the nature or placement of the Sun’s orbit. It states only that the Sun has one.

    As for the Sun’s relationship to the Throne, which is what the hadîth is discussing, this is something that we cannot speculate about. The Throne is part of the Unseen and we know nothing about it except what Allah and His Messenger tell us about it. It follows that the Sun’s behavior in relationship to the throne, both spatially and temporally, is also a matter of the Unseen. We must believe whatever Allah and His Messenger inform us about it and not speculate any further on the subject.

    We can, therefore, safely conclude that these texts are not proof that the Sun orbits the Earth




    (Original post by Iqbal007)
    These guys normally last 2-4 days before getting banned, I recall the last one was called "Last_of_us" or something
    This guy is a fake, he's not an Ex-Muslim. I recognize the writing style, twisting of scripture etc. and the way he pastes quotes (big giveaway) that this is ideas4life on another account.

    I think he should get banned soon.
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    His fatwa is available in Arabic and it's clear that he did threaten to make takfir on those who were in disagreement. He also clearly said that the sun has an orbit around the earth.

    Also, stop your idiotic accusations. I am not any other person and the mods are able to verify that. There are plenty of people who are ex Muslims and are willing and able to expose your false beliefs and I happen to be one of them
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    who the hell is the Grand Mufti and why on Earth should I care about this at 3am on Saturday morning and given that I live in the UK and have so many otherr things to worry about like exam resullts, master's degree offers etc?
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    (Original post by Soft Cat)
    who the hell is the Grand Mufti and why on Earth should I care about this at 3am on Saturday morning and given that I live in the UK and have so many otherr things to worry about like exam resullts, master's degree offers etc?

    The world is a small place now. It's not easy to simple ignore the craziness of the Muslim world. Also there are millions of Muslims living there in the UK aswell and they might be affected by the edicts of these wahabists.
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    (Original post by ExMuslim)
    The world is a small place now. It's not easy to simple ignore the craziness of the Muslim world. Also there are millions of Muslims living there in the UK aswell and they might be affected by the edicts of these wahabists.
    You assume that people are stupid, narrow-minded and backwards and believe me not all muslims/people are like that.
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    (Original post by Soft Cat)
    You assume that people are stupid, narrow-minded and backwards and believe me not all muslims/people are like that.

    The Saudi Arabian government recently executed a man on suspicion of being a wizard. I think that would qualify as stupid, narrow-minded and backwards. So would most of the commandments of Islam.
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    (Original post by ExMuslim)
    The Saudi Arabian government recently executed a man on suspicion of being a wizard....
    So i guess harry potter won't be going there anytime soon. It's Saudi Arabia what do you expect when it has some of the worst human rights records in the world? And if you think that's bad look at North Korea. There's lots of rubbish going on in the world dude, be thankful you live in a free and tolerant society.

    You talk as if people don't know Saudi is a backward state. Come into the 21st century.
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    (Original post by Soft Cat)
    So i guess harry potter won't be going there anytime soon. It's Saudi Arabia what do you expect when it has some of the worst human rights records in the world? And if you think that's bad look at North Korea. There's lots of rubbish going on in the world dude, be thankful you live in a free and tolerant society.

    You talk as if people don't know Saudi is a backward state. Come into the 21st century.

    Saudi Arabia is the embodiment of everything that is wrong with the 7th century faith, Al Islam. They have the qu'ran as their constitution and are ruled by shariah law. Whenever I point out the absurdities of Saudi Arabia, I point out the absurdities of orthodox sunni Islam.
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    He's not the grand mufti. Abdul-Aziz ibn Abdullah Al ash-Sheikh is.
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    (Original post by Soft Cat)
    So i guess harry potter won't be going there anytime soon. It's Saudi Arabia what do you expect when it has some of the worst human rights records in the world? And if you think that's bad look at North Korea. There's lots of rubbish going on in the world dude, be thankful you live in a free and tolerant society.
    Remember that Saudi Arabia spends vast sums of money worldwide indoctrinating people against the notion of a free and tolerant society. The July 6th bombers in London are thought to be influenced by the literature funded and distributed by Saudi Arabia, and huge volumes of material funded by Saudi Arabia makes its way in the UK every year riling against freedom, democracy and liberty.
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    (Original post by Rat_Bag)
    Remember that Saudi Arabia spends vast sums of money worldwide indoctrinating people against the notion of a free and tolerant society. The July 6th bombers in London are thought to be influenced by the literature funded and distributed by Saudi Arabia, and huge volumes of material funded by Saudi Arabia makes its way in the UK every year riling against freedom, democracy and liberty.
    So the sooner the West stops its alliance with Saudi Arabia, the better. It'd mean no more $ to buy off the people in trade for autocracy- something that we happily let by.
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    (Original post by Soft Cat)
    So i guess harry potter won't be going there anytime soon. It's Saudi Arabia what do you expect when it has some of the worst human rights records in the world? And if you think that's bad look at North Korea. There's lots of rubbish going on in the world dude, be thankful you live in a free and tolerant society.

    You talk as if people don't know Saudi is a backward state. Come into the 21st century.
    Made me laugh lol but wtf they killed a man because they thought he was a wizard lol. Saudi arabia is soooo backward :dunce:

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