[Carecup]

I'd love it if we could do the same thing. Unfortunately it is political suicide to do so thanks to the populist tough on crime bull****.

[SnoochToTheBooch]

(Original post by mmmpie)
I fail to see what punishment achieves - it's just formalised retribution. Removing someone from society so that they're not a danger, that achieves something, as does rehabilitation when it works. But simple punishment seems to disregard any chance of doing something positive with the situation.

That would be a novelty.

Prison is supposed to be a punishment, an unpleasant consequence for bad actions, something to be feared. If pure punishment makes the victims' families feel better then I'm all for it. If it makes the criminal miserable then I'm all for it. Why should a person who does despicable things deserve no repercussions?

[Roaroaroar]

(Original post by SnoochToTheBooch)
Prison is supposed to be a punishment, an unpleasant consequence for bad actions, something to be feared. If pure punishment makes the victims' families feel better then I'm all for it. If it makes the criminal miserable then I'm all for it. Why should a person who does despicable things deserve no repercussions?

It isn't as simple as this though. This approach has disadvantages. For example, in the gang community, going to be prison is something that's respected and you get more credentials when you go because of the fact that prison is hard and you've over came this hardness. Suffering makes you less likely to respect the system, it causes you anger. Couple this with the fact that your job prospects out of prison are very limited, it's no surprise that reoffending is so high. Look at countries with this tough on crime approach but stay within the realm of human rights e.g. USA, this approach just doesn't work whose 10% higher than our prison rates have been attributed to their lack of rehabilitation just imagine what our prison rates would be if we also increased our focus on rehabilitation.

We either have to screw human rights and scare prisoners so bad that they won't be willing to return. Or focus on more rehabilitation. And with the former there's a chance that we're going to hurt them so much that they don't have anything to live for apart from getting revenge on the system.

[xXxiKillxXx]

Norway's crime rate is VERY LOW compared to the UK, however, a man who has committed an atrocity like this should not be given extra support like this.

[mmmpie]

(Original post by SnoochToTheBooch)
Prison is supposed to be a punishment, an unpleasant consequence for bad actions, something to be feared. If pure punishment makes the victims' families feel better then I'm all for it. If it makes the criminal miserable then I'm all for it. Why should a person who does despicable things deserve no repercussions?

Because it achieves nothing.

We've been systematically imprisoning people, or worse, for millennia and yet we still have crime. Deterrence is a poor argument.

A person who does despicable things faces all sorts of repercussions. A person does not simply carry on their life as if nothing ever happened. There are other aspects of life than whether or not a person gets to roam free.

Making the victims families feel better is what counselling is for, not what the justice system is for.

[UCLEmily]

(Original post by Roaroaroar)
http://news.yahoo.com/prison-hire-pe...130652699.html

I know Norway has always had a liberal prison system but I can't believe they're willing to spend more money on a guy that killed countless of children. It truly shows how great of a nation they really are. They're like epitome of Jesus with their kindness and compassion even towards the most sick prisoners.

Inb4 right-wingers can't comprehend such acts of compassion and start chanting for death penalty/total isolation.

Norway is a very rich country (one of the highest GDPs per head in the world) so presumably they can afford to be as liberal-minded as this. In a way I think they sound a bit like the Star Trek future universe, where every criminal is treated as basically ill and in need of treatment. I'm sure Breivik is severely ill, but whether he can be treated is a different matter.

[daydreamnation]

theres a difference between your average hooligan ****er in the slammer and terrorists. they shouldnt be treated equally or even similarly. he should be in isolation until the day he dies. (with no world of warcraft!)

[SnoochToTheBooch]

(Original post by mmmpie)
Because it achieves nothing.
We've been systematically imprisoning people, or worse, for millennia and yet we still have crime. Deterrence is a poor argument.

Who says it achieves nothing? I know I don't want to go to prison, it certainly deters me. We've still got crime no doubt, but I bet we'd have a hell of a lot more without the threat of prison. People do fear it and behave themselves I'm sure.

(Original post by mmmpie)
A person who does despicable things faces all sorts of repercussions. A person does not simply carry on their life as if nothing ever happened. There are other aspects of life than whether or not a person gets to roam free.

what repercussions would breivik face if he wasn't caught and imprisoned? I can't imagine he'd be crippled by guilt somehow.

(Original post by mmmpie)
Making the victims families feel better is what counselling is for, not what the justice system is for.

well maybe, maybe not, but justice usually seems to be what the victims' families really want. I suspect many or most would rather see the criminal pay than receive counselling.

(Original post by Roaroaroar)
...

I hear you but that stuff doesn't apply to someone like breivik, he shouldn't ever be released to have the chance to disrespect the system or whatever. **** his prospects or hopes for the future. That stuff only matters for people who can realistically be rehabilitated.

[Aoide]

I've got nothing but respect for the way Norway have handled this. Throughout the trial they have refused to compromise their justice system even in such an extreme case. They have shown that regardless of how they view a criminal they will still be judged and punished as the law says.

While Breivik probably can't be rehabilitated and I don't think he deserve to have a bearable time in prison, I strongly support the way that Norway have refused to break there own justice laws when imprisoning him and intend to treat him just like any other criminal. You may see it as liberal but personaly I think it shows integrity.

[Chumbaniya]

There are aspects of the Norweigan penal system that can be difficult to get your head round at first, and some individual cases can make people really scratch their heads, but when you look at it as a whole what comes through is a real commitment to the idea of prison as primarily protection for the public and reform for criminals, with punishment taking a back seat. I think the circumstances under which it works are quite specific, and only rich, developed nations where political attitudes are geared around social investment rather than personal wealth could pull it off, but it really shows its value when you look at their crime statistics and the rate at which released prisoners go on to re-offend (around 20%, compared to Britain's around 50%).

[UCLEmily]

I really find it too much that they give him so much airtime during the trial to spout his hideous accounts of how much he enjoyed it all, etc. I don't think that serves a useful purpose other than giving him the publicity he craved in his warped outlook.

[Parkway_Drive]

(Original post by brendonbackflip)
Probably for the best - he's mentally ill anyway, I doubt total isolation would help him recover. If he's going to ever go back into society, he needs a lot of support to make sure he's in a healthier state of mind.

He's not mentally ill. Their state shrink tested him. He's just another far right wing fanatic with his pseudo Nazi beliefs who actually did something about what he believed. It was after all a liberal demokrat party youth camp he went to on utöya. Personally I think the guy should be shot, and not be given any contact to the outside world. He doesn't deserve it after what he did and should suffer for it.


Anarchism stands for the liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion; the liberation of the human body from the dominion of property; liberation from the shackles and restraint of government.

[PapaShmurff]

Like others have said prison is meant to be a punishment.

[stifa]

(Original post by PapaShmurff)
Like others have said prison is meant to be a punishment.

So you want murderers to be released after being continuously broken down over the time period of 30 or more years to be released into the street without any kind of support, hardly able to get their lives back on track?

People like that will just keep doing what they got into prison because they hardly have a choice.

Why keep having a system which doesn't work because of your idealistic views?

[PapaShmurff]

(Original post by stifa)
So you want murderers to be released after being continuously broken down over the time period of 30 or more years to be released into the street without any kind of support, hardly able to get their lives back on track?

People like that will just keep doing what they got into prison because they hardly have a choice.

Why keep having a system which doesn't work because of your idealistic views?

I'd rather murderers weren't released.

If you've deliberately killed someone you don't deserve help.

[Parkway_Drive]

(Original post by stifa)
So you want murderers to be released after being continuously broken down over the time period of 30 or more years to be released into the street without any kind of support, hardly able to get their lives back on track?

People like that will just keep doing what they got into prison because they hardly have a choice.

Why keep having a system which doesn't work because of your idealistic views?

Breivik is not likely to be released. I've read up on the Norwegian penal system and the maximum sentence is 20 years BUT they can stack, meaning he can get several life sentences. Even after that they can put 5 years "retention period" on him, which stack as well. He's not getting out any time soon


Anarchism stands for the liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion; the liberation of the human body from the dominion of property; liberation from the shackles and restraint of government.

[stifa]

(Original post by Parkway_Drive)
Breivik is not likely to be released. I've read up on the Norwegian penal system and the maximum sentence is 20 years BUT they can stack, meaning he can get several life sentences. Even after that they can put 5 years "retention period" on him, which stack as well. He's not getting out any time soon


Anarchism stands for the liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion; the liberation of the human body from the dominion of property; liberation from the shackles and restraint of government.

I wasn't really talking about Breivik there; I was rather referring to the rehabilitation vs rot in prison debate going on here.

Also, why don't you add the last part of your post to your sig instead; that way, you won't need to copy it into all of your replies.

[Parkway_Drive]

(Original post by stifa)
I wasn't really talking about Breivik there; I was rather referring to the rehabilitation vs rot in prison debate going on here.

Also, why don't you add the last part of your post to your sig instead; that way, you won't need to copy it into all of your replies.

yeah i noticed after it posted :s i read the first part and got carried away

It is the signature ahah

[pink pineapple]

It's crazy. He probably needs some sort of rehabilitation but to pay people to be 'friends' with him just sounds too extreme.

[Dirac Delta Function]

(Original post by xXxiKillxXx)
Send him to Saudi Arabia

why, so he can give tips to Salafis?