...which would fit in nicely with some of the arguments that the creationists make. There are atheists who mock the concept of things coming into being without a cause, but if some kind of empirical data can prove that to be a reality as oppose to deception, or a bit of presupposed magic, then I can't argue with that...
(Original post by The Mr Z)
Why the need for an external entity to put matter into motion? Why does it need to be put into motion? Why can it not just come into being of its own accord, without any cause?
In fact scientific research tells us that this is the case - matter can spontaneously come into being from the vacuum, from nothing. This has been observed to happen.
that which can be tested and shown to be true.
The only way a deity existing external to this entity/universe having any input would be through that of a receptive human agent, who must have their cognition attributed to that of the soul - which is a thing that transcends the constraints and contingencies of this reality - as described by Descartes (this isn't the only reality that exists, as the electrical nature of the axons and dendrites and also that of the theory of electrical modulation and demodulation proves that to be the possible case, can one speculate otherwise?). Whether or not one would like to accept that is up to the individual, but artificial intelligence (I dual function as a computer programmer/video game developer) and neuroscience has so far failed to provide a sufficient explanation as to what produces intellect within the brain...
There are limits placed on the possible laws of physics by the mathematics that must underpin them and by necessary definitions.
most importantly, any entity existing in the universe must obey the same laws of physics.
and entity not existing in the universe cannot interact with any entity in the universe in any possible way. To each's perspective the other does not exist.
Then God, as you have described him, does not exist. The universe is non-deterministic and non-causal (Determined by experiments on Bell's inequalities and the fundamentals of quantum physics) which would be required for such a God.
We are not able to sense Jesus or angels, there is no evidence that the latter exist and no evidence that the former was anything more than a Jewish preacher at the time of the Roman Empire, who is now dead.
Descartes' has been quite thoroughly debunked, also there are no souls, if there were it would be possible to determine their existence and presence somehow, to determine the point at which a soul leaves a dying person's body. This is not possible.
Descartes' didn't know anything of modern neuroscience, so his misunderstandings are explainable. However he's quite wrong - thoughts are as much a part of the physical form as the rest of it. There is no dualism. (Again such a dualism would be measurable)
By that logic the earth must have been here for an infinite length of time (as the amount of any species that has existed before those which concurrently exist now within this earth is proportional, and subtly determined, by that of the length of the earth's existence...)
You've misunderstood both evolution and what it is to be a species. There is no definable "first chicken".
Evolution is a continuous process, but a species is defined by the ability of members to produce fertile offspring. If you were to find the first creature which could produce fertile offspring with a chicken, while its parents couldn't, it would be a chicken and its parents not. But then it could produce fertile offspring with its parents, so they too would be chickens, but as we have already determined they are not chickens.
This paradox only solves if you change the definition of a species to refer only to creatures of the same time period, the same few generations, which is what is done.
So there is no first chicken.
Last edited by bordercollies10; 17-06-2012 at 01:39.
Evidence for point 2? Surely it is possible that there is an infinite decay occurring within the universe, that being nothing lasts forever in its present state (only at the most refined part, which would be a singular atom) that will result in the atoms coming to a complete standstill hence no more "life" or "material" as we know it...
(Original post by The Mr Z)
What atheists believe is far more likely because we have evidence for it, solid proof that it did happen, whereas we have concrete proof that most of what theists believe in did not happen.
Sorry, what do you mean by point 2) an what the hell is your evidence for it?
There is no valid logic which concludes everything must have an antecedent cause, it can only be an axiom. (it is also a false one - things happen without cause all the time, probability tells is this is not only possible but far more likely than everything having a cause)
You've misunderstood the big bang - there is an event horizon before which we know nothing of (and more importantly cannot know anything of) - we don't know if the universe started then or before and collapsed then rebounded.
But even more importantly it doesn't matter what happened before the event horizon - nothing beyond there can affect the present universe because no information can pass through the event horizon.
...plus, why is it the natural human drive to stay alive, care for others (subject to moral ratification) and reproduce? What will we have achieved by keeping the human race alive and thriving? According to my interpretation of Christian doctrine, we are here as agents to give way to potential agents in order to couple the immaterial mind to the material matter - that being far greater than anything perceivable by humans (i.e. if a blind man was blind from birth, he wouldn't know what sight was and vision would be beyond his mental comprehension)...
Without a deity, the universe must have been around for infinite and the irreversible decay of matter and the existence of hydrogen surely serves as a testament to a universe that has been for finite time...
Events just don't occur without a cause though, the random possibility of an infinite regress of events forming matter, along with the formation of earth and life, along with humans and their consciousness and the drive to subconsciously keep the DNA "going for as long as possible" seems rather peculiar.
Last edited by bordercollies10; 01-07-2012 at 11:39.