[charles-perry]

(Sorry for the long detailed thread in advance!)

Been thinking about what investment banking division I would suit, but after some serious narrowing of options I have come to the following conclusion: IBD or Trading.

Can you please suggest where you would place me given the below?

Here are the true reasons why I am interested…. No BS here! haha

IBD:

What appeals:
- High chance of promotion is your ‘survive’ as performance is not measured individually
- Better exit opps then the below divisions (PE looks very interesting tbh)
- Solid understanding of finance, valuation etc/modelling on excel is pretty interesting
- Don’t actually have to use your brain that much (no offence to anyone) and everything is kinda ‘spoon fed’ as in ‘do this and do that’

What doesn’t appeal:
- Drafting long documents was just a no no for me. I can write well in English but prefer not to draft huge chunks of text!
- I know English and an Asian language only – this will cause a problem in Europe/London as they now really want a European language too.
- Hours are awful – happy to work 12 hours a day but once we get into the 14+ hour days my performance starts dropping off…
- In the long term it becomes a Sales role anyway. That said – who knows how I will be 10 years down the line anyway.

Trading:

What appeals:
- I have a very strong quantitative background (and genuinely like math – yes I know – geeky lol) so this seems like a more natural fit.
- Some trading desks use modelling/not just grunt pitchbook work etc like in IBD
- Much better hours (stressful yes but I think I can cope fine). 12 hours is reasonable imo.
- I’m ‘money/results’ focused – have my own online business and I am athletic (gym, sports etc) and competitive but I’m also quite humble about my achievements (which is a bad thing I was told in my interviews)

What doesn’t appeal:
- Not really a ‘risk taker’ ie don’t play poker or do any extreme sports (well except fencing but thats not real extreme). Mainly because I have never learnt rather then don’t want to. I like analysing the situation before jumping into a solution
- I don’t want my career to be too quantitative… although I like numbers I like other stuff too.
- Very individualistic – pay/bonus depends on your performance – higher ‘fire’ rate when things go wrong and much more limited exit opps compared to IBD
- Heard people are rough, aggressive, quite ‘ruthless’ – I have reasonably thick skin but not extremely thick skin. (I heard this depends on the desk though) I do feel bad when people are gunning me down, and do worry sometimes, although I forget about it by the next day. Im 'nice' according to my interviewer...

I have done the GS Find Your Fit Test truthfully (http://www.goldmansachs.com/careers/...ace/index.html) and my results were:
Investment Banking, FICC, Legal (not in this order - IB, FICC and Legal seem to swap around every time I do the test - even though I give the same answers!)

[bmqib]

i got technolopgy

[charles-perry]

I wouldn't worry - its not 100% accurate. Someone I know who works in IBD got Credit Advisory or something. haha

(I just posted it to show that I have seriously tried to narrow this down and make a choice...)

[stackemup]

Thanks for the GS link. I took the test, and got links for Global Investment Research & Analysis of Commodities/Currency/Fixed Income.

Sorry cant be much of help, i am interested in research/equity research.

[tooambitious]

I got FICC, credit risk and IB

[charles-perry]

haha anyone got any ideas on my problem above?

[Zweihander]

lolz from your apparently superficial understanding of IBD, I would definitely advise you not to pick IBD

[steviewonders]

I got CEO and a number to call to arrange my starting date

[charles-perry]

What's incorrect about my understanding? Please expand.

[charles-perry]

What's wrong about my understand of IBD?

[charles-perry]

(Original post by girlbanker)
I did 2 years in IBD at Goldman and 5 years in Derivative Sales on HSBC's trading floor.

My two cents - you sound very IBD like but you will have to get used to the low sleep. Personally, after 1-year at Goldman I decided that nothing was worth having that little sleep and started trying to move to markets. You won't have to draft any long docs but you will have to read them! (Urgh!) I hated that too.

Also, even in IBD your individual performance matters, you will get rated and your bonus can suffer as a result. Note that because you don't earn money in IBD, it is possible to get poorly paid for political reasons i.e. if you are not the favourite. In markets, if you made money, you get paid, end of story, more meritocratic.

Have you read the book, To Become an Investment Banker? It might help you decide.

Girl Banker

Interesting. I am going to read that book (nope haven't read it before). You authored it right?

You moved from IBD to Sales. Thats pretty interesting (never come across someone who has done this before). What made you pick sales over trading?

Btw - what were your hours like in IBD at GS?

Out of interest - what makes me sound 'very IBD like'? Tbh - I think I do fit IBD better but theres this whole quantitative side to me, not so good at writing essays complex and I like to sleep at least some hours per day lol... thats why I was considering markets. Also - when I learnt about options and stuff in finance during my degree, it was quite interesting compared to the complex wordy finance questions in corporate finance (academically i find it way easier to score in 'math' modules). However - I do prefer 'businesses' over 'markets' (i own an online business) e.g. if BBC news is coming on my eyes open to 'Tesco made a 1% loss' vs 'the FTSE went down 2 points'. One of my friends from society work (works with me on unite a few projects) said i would suit trading. some others say IBD.

I have networked with people form both divisions. They keep saying 'you go to a target uni you will be fine', 'a guy like you can do either' and stuff like that (not boasting - they genuinely say this). This doesn't help me at all haha.

Reading long docs is okay... can do that. Just hate writing long stuff (max pitch books is ok).

What would you advise? Go for IBD for sure?

Thanks!

[non]

(Original post by charles-perry)
Interesting. I am going to read that book (nope haven't read it before). You authored it right?

You moved from IBD to Sales. Thats pretty interesting (never come across someone who has done this before). What made you pick sales over trading?

Btw - what were your hours like in IBD at GS?

Out of interest - what makes me sound 'very IBD like'? Tbh - I think I do fit IBD better but theres this whole quantitative side to me, not so good at writing essays complex and I like to sleep at least some hours per day lol... thats why I was considering markets. Also - when I learnt about options and stuff in finance during my degree, it was quite interesting compared to the complex wordy finance questions in corporate finance (academically i find it way easier to score in 'math' modules). However - I do prefer 'businesses' over 'markets' (i own an online business) e.g. if BBC news is coming on my eyes open to 'Tesco made a 1% loss' vs 'the FTSE went down 2 points'. One of my friends from society work (works with me on unite a few projects) said i would suit trading. some others say IBD.

I have networked with people form both divisions. They keep saying 'you go to a target uni you will be fine', 'a guy like you can do either' and stuff like that (not boasting - they genuinely say this). This doesn't help me at all haha.

Reading long docs is okay... can do that. Just hate writing long stuff (max pitch books is ok).

What would you advise? Go for IBD for sure?

Thanks!

if you don't mind saying what type of online business do you run? also, i would only go into IBD if you are noly spending 1-3 years there and then moving onto PE or VC or other jobs. trading is more long term but less exit opps.

[charles-perry]

(Original post by non)
if you don't mind saying what type of online business do you run? also, i would only go into IBD if you are noly spending 1-3 years there and then moving onto PE or VC or other jobs. trading is more long term but less exit opps.

Yea it's an ecommerce business....
The plan is to do IBD for 1-3 years and move into PE or HFs but if I really like IBD then I may stay. It's hard to tell what will happen tbh!

[PrincePauper]

(Original post by charles-perry)
Yea it's an ecommerce business....
The plan is to do IBD for 1-3 years and move into PE or HFs but if I really like IBD then I may stay. It's hard to tell what will happen tbh!

Sorry, have you even applied anywhere yet?

Regards

[girlbanker]

(Original post by charles-perry)
Interesting. I am going to read that book (nope haven't read it before). You authored it right?

You moved from IBD to Sales. Thats pretty interesting (never come across someone who has done this before). What made you pick sales over trading?

Btw - what were your hours like in IBD at GS?

Out of interest - what makes me sound 'very IBD like'? Tbh - I think I do fit IBD better but theres this whole quantitative side to me, not so good at writing essays complex and I like to sleep at least some hours per day lol... thats why I was considering markets. Also - when I learnt about options and stuff in finance during my degree, it was quite interesting compared to the complex wordy finance questions in corporate finance (academically i find it way easier to score in 'math' modules). However - I do prefer 'businesses' over 'markets' (i own an online business) e.g. if BBC news is coming on my eyes open to 'Tesco made a 1% loss' vs 'the FTSE went down 2 points'. One of my friends from society work (works with me on unite a few projects) said i would suit trading. some others say IBD.

I have networked with people form both divisions. They keep saying 'you go to a target uni you will be fine', 'a guy like you can do either' and stuff like that (not boasting - they genuinely say this). This doesn't help me at all haha.

Reading long docs is okay... can do that. Just hate writing long stuff (max pitch books is ok).

What would you advise? Go for IBD for sure?

Thanks!

Hi Charles,

If someone in 2004 had asked me whether I was sure about going into IBD, I would have sworn it in blood because at that point I was more than sure that it was the path for me. It took a crappy sleepless year in IBD and CFA level 1 to realize that I do have this quanty side that really wanted to be doing deriv sales.

I knew trading would be way too stressful for me, I don't like being rushed into a decision although I generally make my mind up pretty quickly and I don't think holding a loss-making risk position for weeks or even months at a time would suit my temperament, I would make too much of a big deal over it - not good for keeping hair!!

My hours in IBD? On average 8:30 a.m. to 10:30 p.m.; I went home earlier on Fridays, worked at least one day of the weekend, worked past midnight at least once a week. Never pulled an all-nighter, latest I ever went home was 4:00 a.m. and back by 7:00 a.m. - two hours is better than nada!

So, would I say go for IBD for sure - no, not for sure. I chose that mostly because the 'cons' were very minor and more major on the capital markets points. In my book I discuss the two sides of banking in A LOT of depth because I am one of VERY FEW people that has worked on both sides so I know how I felt and what it's really like. The more you read about the two sides and look into your own character the better able you will be to decide which is better for you.

Summer's here so take some time to read about both departments. Blogs are a good starting point. I would direct you towards some blogs but advertising isn't allowed on tsr!

My very best,
Girl Banker (Heather Katsonga-Woodward)

[KLL]

(Original post by girlbanker)

My hours in IBD? On average 8:30 a.m. to 10:30 p.m.; I went home earlier on Fridays, worked at least one day of the weekend, worked past midnight at least once a week. Never pulled an all-nighter, latest I ever went home was 4:00 a.m. and back by 7:00 a.m. - two hours is better than nada!

That can't be normal for BBs? I almost never finished before 12 or 1 and that was at a more laid back boutique

[PrincePauper]

(Original post by KLL)
That can't be normal for BBs? I almost never finished before 12 or 1 and that was at a more laid back boutique

Volume? team size??

[Moiraclaire]

That quiz was very pleasing. It pretty much generated a list in the order I would do myself, good to know I'm aiming n the right direction hahaha
I got
Asset management - sounds pretty nice?
fixed income, currency and commodities - MY DREAM (I'm a geek)
Credit risk management and advisory - sounds like maths ? Beautiful.

[KLL]

(Original post by PrincePauper)
Volume? team size??

Relevance?

[PrincePauper]

(Original post by KLL)
Relevance?

You really want me to explain??

A large team will be able to get through work in less hours. At a Boutique I would envisage teams being smaller and would have to put in more hours to get through the same workload that a BB has.