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B460 - National Anthems Bill

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    (Original post by Rhadamanthus)
    Technically "God Save the Queen" was never legislated to be the national anthem of the UK, and is so in a de facto sense only. Therefore the wording of this bill ("will be changed from 'God Save the Queen'") is completely unecessary and more than a tad confusing, legally.
    There's also this complication to the bill, aye!
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    aside from the fact that technically we dont have a national anthem, sure why not.
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    (Original post by Rhadamanthus)
    Technically "God Save the Queen" was never legislated to be the national anthem of the UK, and is so in a de facto sense only. Therefore the wording of this bill ("will be changed from 'God Save the Queen'") is completely unecessary and more than a tad confusing, legally.
    I'm not sure about that. Wikipedia does mention anything about it only being the de facto Anthem..

    But.. I'll just put shall be rather than shall be changed to in the second reading.
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    (Original post by xXedixXx)
    I'm not sure about that. Wikipedia does mention anything about it only being the de facto Anthem..

    But.. I'll just put shall be rather than shall be changed to in the second reading.
    From Wikipedia:

    "No law was passed making God Save the Queen the official anthem. In the British tradition, such laws are not necessary; proclamation and usage are sufficient to make it the official national anthem. God Save the Queen also serves as the Royal anthem for several other countries."
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    (Original post by Rhadamanthus)
    From Wikipedia:

    "No law was passed making God Save the Queen the official anthem. In the British tradition, such laws are not necessary; proclamation and usage are sufficient to make it the official national anthem. God Save the Queen also serves as the Royal anthem for several other countries."
    Yep fair enough. As I shall, I'll change it to shall be the National Anthem rather than shall be changed from ... to ...
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    The referendum supported the monarchy did it not? Clearly the UK does in fact view the queen as a symbol of the nation thus I see no particular reason we should have any desire to change it. That individuals do not identify with the song because they are republican is neither here nor there. The point of a national anthem is a song that is an instantly recognisable song associated with the nation. This is what God Save the Queen does, and given the queen has just been proved to still be regarded a symbol of the nation by the referendum as well, it's probably going to stay that way This seems little more than a cynical republican move in light of the failure of the referendum to support republicanism and castigate the position of the royalty as a symbol of the UK because MP's are majority republicans rather than monarchists.

    And I'm a fence-sitter on the topic of monarchy.
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    (Original post by big-bang-theory)
    The referendum supported the monarchy did it not? Clearly the UK does in fact view the queen as a symbol of the nation thus I see no particular reason we should have any desire to change it. That individuals do not identify with the song because they are republican is neither here nor there. The point of a national anthem is a song that is an instantly recognisable song associated with the nation. This is what God Save the Queen does, and given the queen has just been proved to still be regarded a symbol of the nation by the referendum as well, it's probably going to stay that way This seems little more than a cynical republican move in light of the failure of the referendum to support republicanism and castigate the position of the royalty as a symbol of the UK because MP's are majority republicans rather than monarchists.

    And I'm a fence-sitter on the topic of monarchy.
    If you don't think "Rule Britannia" is an "instantly recognisable song associated with the nation" then I think you've never heard it before.


    How would making God Save The Queen the Royal Anthem sound?
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    Yawn.
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    (Original post by xXedixXx)
    No. Do you know what paraphrasing is?
    Yes, I do know what 'paraphrasing' means. This isn't an example of it. Paraphrasing is when you take a source, rephrase it into your own words, use quote marks for any direct quotes which are unchanged from the words of the orginal author, and aknoledge its author. With the phrase 'We've' rather than 'the Empire', if paraphrasing you are assuming that i) you are part of the Empire (debatable) and ii) since you have earlier said 'us Britons' (should have been part of the same sentance but either poor or informal grammar was used) all Britons are part of the empire (even more debatable and something I'm sure many 'Britons' would disagree with.) In addition, even if this were a very unclear and poorly executed attempt at paraphrasing, then the quote marks shouldn't have been used because they say that those were my words exactly and not paraphrased. Therefore, you have not paraphrased or even shown any real attempt to paraphrase, you have misquoted and defamed me which is clearly unacceptable conduct.
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    (Original post by CLS94)
    Yes, I do know what 'paraphrasing' means. This isn't an example of it. Paraphrasing is when you take a source, rephrase it into your own words, use quote marks for any direct quotes which are unchanged from the words of the orginal author, and aknoledge its author. With the phrase 'We've' rather than 'the Empire', if paraphrasing you are assuming that i) you are part of the Empire (debatable) and ii) since you have earlier said 'us Britons' (should have been part of the same sentance but either poor or informal grammar was used) all Britons are part of the empire (even more debatable and something I'm sure many 'Britons' would disagree with.) In addition, even if this were a very unclear and poorly executed attempt at paraphrasing, then the quote marks shouldn't have been used because they say that those were my words exactly and not paraphrased. Therefore, you have not paraphrased or even shown any real attempt to paraphrase, you have misquoted and defamed me which is clearly unacceptable conduct.
    Read that back to yourself and then you'll understand why I'm sitting here laughing at you for being such a grammar nazi.
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    (Original post by xXedixXx)
    It's a nice patriotic song but I feel that the National Anthem should include the name of the country it's the Anthem for.
    Shame the Americans didn't think that.

    I agree that Land of Hope and Glory should be our anthem it's far more rousing than Jerusalem which in my eyes has always been more of hymn than an anthem.
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    (Original post by xXedixXx)
    Read that back to yourself and then you'll understand why I'm sitting here laughing at you for being such a grammar nazi.
    Mistaking misquoting for paraphrasing has nothing at all to do with grammar.

    You going to answer any of my posts at any point?
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    (Original post by paperclip)
    Yawn.
    Seeing as someone felt the need to neg me for this, i shall explain it.

    I find it fascinating that people who identify themselves as having an active interest in politics are so bothered by this. It is the embodiment of why the political class are so out of touch with reality; noone cares. A fraction of the population will actually enjoy the song, others will treat it as an opportunity to be patriotic, and most people wont actually care. If this is the sort of politics you get passionate about, well, then yawn.

    I also find it impressive that the OP has managed to propose a modernisation of the national anthem and used one that is quite frankly, imperialist BS. I would imagine the point of modernising the national anthem would be so that it reflects us better as a country, so that it reflects our norms and values, the proposed song in no way does this. The only defence edix offered of this was that we shouldn't be ashamed of our past, beyond finding it hilarious that he had to manipulate quotes in order to demonstrate that individuals were 'ashamed', that still doesn't mean we should be proud of some of our appalling history - and certainly doesn't mean we should be reminded of it every football match.

    Patriots are a joke. If you blindingly follow any country/leader you are a joke. Patriotism is something we lack in the UK, and that makes me proud (the irony is delicious :p:). If the writer of the bill truly thinks this will make people more patriotic or care more, well then, more the fool him. David had an excellent post on this topic:

    (Original post by davidmarsh01)
    No we don't, and I really wish you'd stop saying that. The times I've been to America it's cringe-worthy how many times I see the flag, almost everywhere you go it's seen, and it's quite ridiculous. What exactly makes the USA (or, in this case, extend it to the UK) so great that we need reminded of it every few minutes? When I go and see the ice hockey team the Braehead Clan, they play O Flower of Scotland, and everyone is told to stand for it. Do I? No, I see it as ridiculous, and would hate to see that sort of thing become much more widespread in UK culture. In international matches I can see a point to it, but not in domestic matches. That brings me on to my next point - do I see national anthems as something to be proud of, as a way to somehow celebrate and be proud of my country? No, I see it as a bit of fun before sporting events.
    As if my/Davids point needed further illustrating. The only massive patriot on here, tehfrance, is considered a troll and a joke. Hands up if you want a nation of tehfrance.

    EDIT: Isnt TSR idol meant to be our national anthem? If noone will, i shall submit my own version of a song
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    (Original post by xXedixXx)
    Read that back to yourself and then you'll understand why I'm sitting here laughing at you for being such a grammar nazi.
    It's not about being a grammar nazi, I can understand grammar errors especially at the time of night the conversation took place, but misquoting me and then using the false quote to critisize what I was saying. Grow up and have a debate about the actual content, stand up for it if you really believe in it rather than resorting to misquoting and throwing about nonsense like 'paraphrasing' and phrases like grammar nazi.
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    (Original post by CLS94)
    It's not about being a grammar nazi, I can understand grammar errors especially at the time of night the conversation took place, but misquoting me and then using the false quote to critisize what I was saying. Grow up and have a debate about the actual content, stand up for it if you really believe in it rather than resorting to misquoting and throwing about nonsense like 'paraphrasing' and phrases like grammar nazi.
    Haha at edix feeling the need to neg this. I think you hurt the little boys feelings :console:
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    (Original post by paperclip)
    Haha at edix feeling the need to neg this. I think you hurt the little boys feelings :console:
    I'm a wee lad, not a little boy. :P
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    (Original post by xXedixXx)
    I'm a wee lad, not a little boy. :P
    I will call you whatever you desire when you learn the difference between quoting and paraphrasing :p:
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    (Original post by CLS94)
    So, your going to change the national anthem from being monarchist to being imperialist?
    (Original post by paperclip)
    I also find it impressive that the OP has managed to propose a modernisation of the national anthem and used one that is quite frankly, imperialist BS.
    Just on a point of fact - Rule Britannia was written for a sort of opera in the 18th century and pre-dates most of the colonial Empire, eg. in Africa and India. There isn't much in the lyrics that could be construed as imperialist, even by a 21st century professional grievance manufacturer:

    When Britain first, at Heaven's command
    Arose from out the azure main;
    This was the charter of the land,
    And guardian angels sang this strain:


    [subtext: Britain is surrounded by the sea and it's also really awesome!]

    "Rule, Britannia! rule the waves:
    "Britons never will be slaves."


    [subtext: Slavery is bad, and people in Britain are free because they have a strong navy.]

    The nations, not so blest as thee,
    Must, in their turns, to tyrants fall;
    While thou shalt flourish great and free,
    The dread and envy of them all.


    [subtext: Many other countries are ruled by tyrants, but not Britain. Also, tyrants beware because Britain is really powerful.]

    Still more majestic shalt thou rise,
    More dreadful, from each foreign stroke;
    As the loud blast that tears the skies,
    Serves but to root thy native oak.


    [subtext: Foreign tyrants keep trying to tyrannise Britain, but they always lose.]

    Thee haughty tyrants ne'er shall tame:
    All their attempts to bend thee down,
    Will but arouse thy generous flame;
    But work their woe, and thy renown.


    [subtext: When will those tyrants ever learn?!]

    To thee belongs the rural reign;
    Thy cities shall with commerce shine:
    All thine shall be the subject main,
    And every shore it circles thine.


    [subtext: Britain has beautiful countryside and prosperous cities.]

    The Muses, still with freedom found,
    Shall to thy happy coast repair;
    Blest Isle! With matchless beauty crown'd,
    And manly hearts to guard the fair.


    [subtext: Because Britain is so strong and rich and free, it has lots of arts and learning.]

    ---

    Personally I find the lyrics to 'Land of My Fathers' much more sinister. It's positively Germanic, even. But it does have a nice tune.
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    (Original post by DynamicSyngery)
    Personally I find the lyrics to 'Land of My Fathers' much more sinister. It's positively Germanic, even. But it does have a nice tune.
    In what sense is a song about poets and singers and an ancient language "positively Germanic"?
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    (Original post by DynamicSyngery)
    Just on a point of fact - Rule Britannia was written for a sort of opera in the 18th century and pre-dates most of the colonial Empire, eg. in Africa and India. There isn't much in the lyrics that could be construed as imperialist, even by a 21st century professional grievance manufacturer:

    When Britain first, at Heaven's command
    Arose from out the azure main;
    This was the charter of the land,
    And guardian angels sang this strain:


    [subtext: Britain is surrounded by the sea and it's also really awesome!]

    "Rule, Britannia! rule the waves:
    "Britons never will be slaves."


    [subtext: Slavery is bad, and people in Britain are free because they have a strong navy.]

    The nations, not so blest as thee,
    Must, in their turns, to tyrants fall;
    While thou shalt flourish great and free,
    The dread and envy of them all.


    [subtext: Many other countries are ruled by tyrants, but not Britain. Also, tyrants beware because Britain is really powerful.]

    Still more majestic shalt thou rise,
    More dreadful, from each foreign stroke;
    As the loud blast that tears the skies,
    Serves but to root thy native oak.


    [subtext: Foreign tyrants keep trying to tyrannise Britain, but they always lose.]

    Thee haughty tyrants ne'er shall tame:
    All their attempts to bend thee down,
    Will but arouse thy generous flame;
    But work their woe, and thy renown.


    [subtext: When will those tyrants ever learn?!]

    To thee belongs the rural reign;
    Thy cities shall with commerce shine:
    All thine shall be the subject main,
    And every shore it circles thine.


    [subtext: Britain has beautiful countryside and prosperous cities.]

    The Muses, still with freedom found,
    Shall to thy happy coast repair;
    Blest Isle! With matchless beauty crown'd,
    And manly hearts to guard the fair.


    [subtext: Because Britain is so strong and rich and free, it has lots of arts and learning.]

    ---

    Personally I find the lyrics to 'Land of My Fathers' much more sinister. It's positively Germanic, even. But it does have a nice tune.
    Thank you for providing an explanation of the lyrics. The song is purely patriotic, making people feel proud of their country. I see nothing wrong with that and you've shown that it isn't imperialistic.
Updated: June 15, 2012
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