[emilie18]

(Original post by -jessica)
Because our teeth are so similar to those of carnivores...?

If you can kill an animal and eat raw flesh with your teeth, then I'll agree with you.

Also.. carnivorous animals have much shorter intestinal tracts than we do. Ours (much like herbivores) are around 10 times our height.

And a few other points:
-We have no claws
-We have no sharp front teeth. We have molars for grinding.
-We have weaker stomach acid than carnivores
-All omnivores/carnivores eat meat raw. I could personally never do that..

Humans haven't adapted to kill animals with their bare teeth. As an intelligent species, we first did that with spears and traps and then later on with more modern technology.

- We have no claws because we are intelligent enough to use knives etc
- Again, as humans we don't need to rip the flesh off with our teeth
- Carnivores consume vast amounts of meat, much more than we do. We are omnivores and less acid is needed to process fruit and veg...
- Clearly not, since we are omnivores and cook our meat. Anyway, some people have their steak so rare that it's bloody, so yes some people do! You personally couldn't do that because you have been socialised into thinking it's not the norm. Our ancestors certainly did, before they were able to make fire. Also, sushi is raw rish.

[bm127]

(Original post by infairverona)
You have both completely missed the point. She is asking whether from a religious perspective, could humans ever be herbivores again. That is not inviting you both to attempt to rubbish her entire religious belief. If someone said to you "do you think God is not good, because there is evil in the world?" replying something along the lines of "no because God isn't real lol" does not sufficiently answer the question. You have both ignored the main line of debate that this lady intended to open so that you can just bash her for her religious beliefs. That's not right. You are disguising your bullying by saying you're criticising and debating when actually you have gone off on a tangent about how fictional religion is, making fun of it with this whole Adam and Steve thing and just generally ignored the line she wanted to discuss.

If you haven't noticed I haven't rubbished her religious belief at all, I happened to come across your post when I was looking through some threads, and my only comments have been with regards to whether or not criticism of the religious aspect should be allowed here.

I never even criticised anything she has said, (scroll up this thread if you don't believe me, I've only posted twice) all I said was that "a proportion don't believe that life began with Adam and Eve", and that that had to be acknowledged as this is in the debates section, so don't accuse me of bullying. Again scroll up this thread, my two posts have been in response to you, regarding the fact this is under the debates section, and that an argument using religion is open to debate (I didn't even criticise it myself).

Why don't you check what I've actually said before accusing me of bullying here.

[Christianlady]

(Original post by bm127)
If you haven't noticed I haven't rubbished her religious belief at all, I happened to come across your post when I was looking through some threads, and my only comments have been with regards to whether or not criticism of the religious aspect should be allowed here.

I never even criticised anything she has said, (scroll up this thread if you don't believe me, I've only posted twice) all I said was that "a proportion don't believe that life began with Adam and Eve", and that that had to be acknowledged as this is in the debates section, so don't accuse me of bullying. Again scroll up this thread, my two posts have been in response to you, regarding the fact this is under the debates section, and that an argument using religion is open to debate (I didn't even criticise it myself).

Hello Bm,

I think the issue is that some to many Atheists tend to attack Theists' beliefs and look down on people who believe in God. This topic does indeed have to do with a religious perspective, however, since Adam and Eve are mentioned in the Tanakh, which includes documentation of a group of people who believed in God and who believe God gave commands to the children of Israel. Some to many of their descendants still believe in God and believe the Tanakh is true to different extents, to this day. The quotes which I quoted from Isaiah are also a part of the Tanakh.

Peace and God bless you

[infairverona]

(Original post by bm127)
If you haven't noticed I haven't rubbished her religious belief at all, I happened to come across your post when I was looking through some threads, and my only comments have been with regards to whether or not criticism of the religious aspect should be allowed here.

I never even criticised anything she has said, (scroll up this thread if you don't believe me, I've only posted twice) all I said was that "a proportion don't believe that life began with Adam and Eve", and that that had to be acknowledged as this is in the debates section, so don't accuse me of bullying. Again scroll up this thread, my two posts have been in response to you, regarding the fact this is under the debates section, and that an argument using religion is open to debate (I didn't even criticise it myself).

Apologies, I think I have mistaken you for somebody else.

[-jessica]

(Original post by emilie18)
Humans haven't adapted to kill animals with their bare teeth. As an intelligent species, we first did that with spears and traps and then later on with more modern technology.

- We have no claws because we are intelligent enough to use knives etc
- Again, as humans we don't need to rip the flesh off with our teeth
- Carnivores consume vast amounts of meat, much more than we do. We are omnivores and less acid is needed to process fruit and veg...
- Clearly not, since we are omnivores and cook our meat. Anyway, some people have their steak so rare that it's bloody, so yes some people do! You personally couldn't do that because you have been socialised into thinking it's not the norm. Our ancestors certainly did, before they were able to make fire. Also, sushi is raw rish.

I don't eat/never have eaten raw fish.

Or maybe we have been made to think that eating cooked meat is the norm? I mean, if you were put in a room with a little lamb (or any other animal that we 'prey' on), would you instinctively want to kill and cook it?

And I agree with what a previous poster said -that I would be much more comfortable with humans eating meat if they hunted it themselves.

[bm127]

(Original post by Christianlady)
Hello Bm,

I think the issue is that some to many Atheists tend to attack Theists' beliefs and look down on people who believe in God. This topic does indeed have to do with a religious perspective, however, since Adam and Eve are mentioned in the Tanakh, which includes people who believe in God and who believe God gave commands to the children of Israel. The quotes which I quoted from Isaiah are also a part of the Tanakh.

Peace and God bless you

In the same way many people who believe in God look down on Atheists. But I had no part in the religious debate on this thread, my issue was with the fact that in a debates section people should be able to disagree with any aspect of a point that is being made. Hence why I resent the fact I was accused of bullying here.

[k1zza1]

(Original post by Christianlady)


No! He was born a long time later lol.

This is exactly my point but it may not be that clear so I'll put it differently.
Your arguemnets surrounding whether we should eat animals or not is based on the story of Adam and Eve written in the Bible by Moses/people after Moses. Moses wasn't alive when this supposedly took took place. Therefore it is Impossible for him to know what happened! Therefore there is absolutely no difference between his story and my story, both of which conflict.

As to your, quite rude, comment about me not understanding people who believe differently. My family are all Catholic and so was I until 2 years ago. I went to a Catholic primary and secondary school before moving to a mixed denomination Sixth Form. To claim that I am not respecting others opinions is frankly insulting...

[bm127]

(Original post by infairverona)
Apologies, I think I have mistaken you for somebody else.

Sure you did, oh well credit for admitting fault.

[Christianlady]

(Original post by k1zza1)
This is exactly my point but it may not be that clear so I'll put it differently.
Your arguemnets surrounding whether we should eat animals or not is based on the story of Adam and Eve written in the Bible by Moses/people after Moses. Moses wasn't alive when this supposedly took took place. Therefore it is Impossible for him to know what happened! Therefore there is absolutely no difference between his story and my story, both of which conflict.

Hello K1zza,

Actually, memorization and oral recitation was well practiced by many groups of people, until they were able to write down what their grandparents had taught them through word of mouth. So, Moses being able to recount what he had heard and his ancestors had heard from the mouths of their forefathers is not in itself abnormal or impossible.

As to your, quite rude, comment about me not understanding people who believe differently. My family are all Catholic and so was I until 2 years ago. I went to a Catholic primary and secondary school before moving to a mixed denomination Sixth Form. To claim that I am not respecting others opinions is frankly insulting...

Just because one went to a Catholic school or one's family belongs to a certain religious group does not mean that person respects others' beliefs. Sadly, there are many Christians, both Catholic and Protestant, who do not respect what other people believe, including what Jewish people who do not believe Jesus is the Messiah, believe.. This is one of the greatest tragedies in human history, the lack of respect between people who say they believe in God. This is what helped lead to the horrible injustices of the Inquisition, the Crusades, and the Holocaust, for example, as well as the Puritans, a Protestant group, burning "witches". If Christians obeyed Jesus' commands to love others, and showed respect to people different than them, it is very possible none of these injustices would have happened.

If it insults you that I think you do not respect other's beliefs, I apologize. However, respect can be seen through the words one uses, unless there are misunderstandings. If you do indeed truly respect Jewish people who believe in G-d and that the Tanakh is true, as well as people who believe in God and in Jesus, as well as those who believe in God and Muhammad, as well a those who believe in gods in different forms, I apologize. I did not see it in the words you chose. Sad to say, in both Catholic and Protestant congregations, i have also not seen much respect by many for the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Peace and God bless you

[. . .]

(Original post by Christianlady)
Hello K1zza,

Actually, memorization and oral recitation was well practiced by many groups of people, until they were able to write down what their grandparents had taught them through word of mouth. So, Moses being able to recount what he had heard and his ancestors had heard from the mouths of their forefathers is not in itself abnormal or impossible.



Just because one went to a Catholic school or one's family belongs to a certain religious group does not mean that person respects others' beliefs. Sadly, there are many Christians, both Catholic and Protestant, who do not respect what other people, including Jewish people who do not believe Jesus is the Messiah, believe. This is one of the greatest tragedies in human history, the lack of respect between people who say they believe in God.

If it insults you that I think you do not respect other's beliefs, I apologize. However, respect can be seen through the words one uses, unless there are misunderstandings. If you do indeed truly respect Jewish people who believe in G-d and that the Tanakh is true, as well as people who believe in God and in Jesus, as well as those who believe in God and Muhammad, as well a those who believe in gods in different forms, I apologize. I did not see it in the words you chose. Sad to say, in both Catholic and Protestant congregations, i have also not seen much respect by many for the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Peace and God bless you

Just because something is memorised and recited does not make it flawless. Think of Chinese whispers.

And understanding a different point of view is not the same as respecting another point of view.
Also according to Jewish scriptures one of the requirements of the messiah is that he should be an ordinary human which Jesus was not.
Also why do sometimes refer to God as God and sometimes as G-d?

[Christianlady]

(Original post by . . .)
Just because something is memorised and recited does not make it flawless. Think of Chinese whispers.

And understanding a different point of view is not the same as respecting another point of view.
Also according to Jewish scriptures one of the requirements of the messiah is that he should be an ordinary human which Jesus was not.
Also why do sometimes refer to God as God and sometimes as G-d?

Hello ...

Many Jewish Orthodox people take out the vowels when writing God. This is a tradition based on the fact that many Jewish scribes washed their hands before writing, because they consider even the name of G-d to be holy.

Christians don't do this normally, however.

Please see http://www.religion.ucsb.edu/faculty...ures/lec5.html

Peace and God bless you

[k1zza1]

(Original post by Christianlady)
Hello K1zza,

they were able to write down what their grandparents had taught them through word of mouth. So, Moses being able to recount what he had heard and his ancestors had heard from the mouths of their forefathers is not in itself abnormal or impossible.

There is a well known children's story called Jack and the Beanstalk. This was told to me by my Grandparents when I was young. Was there a boy called Jack with a cow who got some magic beans and a beanstalk grew and he went to the top and saw a Giant? No. In exactly the same way the Story of Adam and Eve is, in itself a story told about the creation of the world when there wasn't any other explanation for it. It is, I admit, quite a good story but it is a story none the less and so warrants no more emphasis than any other fairy tale that is told



I have many Sikh and Muslim friends. Do I respect them? Yes. Do I respect their right to believe in a religion? Yes. If I went to their place of worship would I respect it? Yes. Do I believe that their religion is correct? No. There is a massive difference between believing in something and respecting it. The two do not always correlate. There are many religions in this world each with, theoretically, as much of a claim to be the correct on as the next, yet we do not believe in all of them as that would be daft. If you cannot bear to have people argue against you as you believe that they then 'disrespect' your religion, then its a bit silly to post on this forum....

[PandyAndy]

(Original post by Christianlady)
Hello PandyAndy,

Actually, a person or group of people who have an issue with an ancient document should prevent evidence. The Tanakh is way older than anyone living at the moment, so it is the responsibility of the antagonist to present documented proof going back to the time in question.

Peace and God bless you

What a load of *******s. It's up to the proponent to provide supplementary sources and evidence to back up their old document's claims. If your argument were valid, then we could take any old document and say it's true. Where's your document saying that Zeus didn't exist? Why would anyone write a document saying that Adam and Eve were not real? That's just dumb, and if you can't see that then there's something wrong somewhere.

[Christianlady]

(Original post by k1zza1)
There is a well known children's story called Jack and the Beanstalk. This was told to me by my Grandparents when I was young. Was there a boy called Jack with a cow who got some magic beans and a beanstalk grew and he went to the top and saw a Giant? No. In exactly the same way the Story of Adam and Eve is, in itself a story told about the creation of the world when there wasn't any other explanation for it. It is, I admit, quite a good story but it is a story none the less and so warrants no more emphasis than any other fairy tale that is told

Hello K1zza,

If you consider the Ancient Scriptures (the Tanakh) to be little more than a children's fantasy story, that is your opinion. However, it most definitely does not negate the fact that for at least 2 thousand years, a group of people believed that the Tanakh is true, including the founder of Christian beliefs: Jesus, as well as his followers.

I have many Sikh and Muslim friends. Do I respect them? Yes. Do I respect their right to believe in a religion? Yes. If I went to their place of worship would I respect it? Yes. Do I believe that their religion is correct? No. There is a massive difference between believing in something and respecting it. The two do not always correlate. There are many religions in this world each with, theoretically, as much of a claim to be the correct on as the next, yet we do not believe in all of them as that would be daft. If you cannot bear to have people argue against you as you believe that they then 'disrespect' your religion, then its a bit silly to post on this forum....

If you do not wish to study the Tanakh, it is your right to just blow it off and consider it a fairy tale. I do not see that as respectful, but if you think you are being respectful to those who believe the Tanakh is true, I cannot help you with that.

Peace and God bless you

[Christianlady]

(Original post by PandyAndy)
What a load of *******s. It's up to the proponent to provide supplementary sources and evidence to back up their old document's claims. If your argument were valid, then we could take any old document and say it's true. Where's your document saying that Zeus didn't exist? Why would anyone write a document saying that Adam and Eve were not real? That's just dumb, and if you can't see that then there's something wrong somewhere.

Hello PandyAndy,

The Tanakh says that the gods of other peoples are just idols. So, for the people who have followed Moses to the people of today, there are people who believe the Torah and all of the Tanakh provides evidence that the One and Only God is the One that the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob worshiped, many still doing so today, in addition to Gentiles who believe that Jesus is the Messiah, in addition to Muslims who believe Muhammad was the last prophet.

Peace and God bless you

[k1zza1]

(Original post by Christianlady)
...

Well we've gone a little bit off topic here and seeing as you're ignoring my and other peoples points I think we should try and move on.

So, why do I eat animals?

Well I find meat tasty and nutritious and thus enjoy eating it. Also I see no difference between killing an animal in a humane way and digging a plant out of the ground.

So what do you say to that?

[Christianlady]

(Original post by bm127)
In the same way many people who believe in God look down on Atheists. But I had no part in the religious debate on this thread, my issue was with the fact that in a debates section people should be able to disagree with any aspect of a point that is being made. Hence why I resent the fact I was accused of bullying here.

Hello Bm,

I don't look down on Atheists. Personally, I understand why Atheism exists and have even written that if not for my personal experiences, I would be an Atheist.

I think the poster was just stressing the fact that many Atheists attack what Theists believe.

It is perfectly fine for people to disagree. I disagree with Jewish people who believe in G-d and the Tanakh and do not believe Jesus is the Messiah. However, I understand why they don't believe in Jesus, respect them, and agree to disagree. I also greatly respect much of their beliefs, including the belief that people who are not Jewish Orthodox or followers of Judaism in different forms can go to Heaven, which is cool!

It is very possible to disagree and not insult/mock those who believe differently, and have meaningful discussion with mutual respect.

Peace and God bless

[Lord-Voldemort]

(Original post by Christianlady)
Hello Florrick,

I don't know.

They might merely cease to exist, which is fine to me in most cases, though I do admit I pray that animals who are special to me go to Heaven, and be a part of the eternal experience. I can't imagine life without animal friends. The verses in Isaiah 11 and Isaiah 65 make me wonder if this is indeed a part of Heaven, for animals to live in peace and care with humans. It wouldn't surprise me if the prophet Isaiah had a soft heart for animals as well.

Peace and God bless you

That's heresy.

[Christianlady]

(Original post by k1zza1)
Well we've gone a little bit off topic here and seeing as you're ignoring my and other peoples points I think we should try and move on.

So, why do I eat animals?

Well I find meat tasty and nutritious and thus enjoy eating it. Also I see no difference between killing an animal in a humane way and digging a plant out of the ground.

So what do you say to that?

Hello K1zza,

I see a big difference between an animal and a plant.

First of all, plants, as far as i know, don't feel pain.

I know without a doubt that animals feel pain. For example, I accidentally stepped on my darling Sheila, a beautiful little Yorkie, and her yelp of pain led me to cast aside everything until she was comforted and happy once more.

I have never heard a plant yelp in pain.

That in itself is a difference which leads me to believe eating animals was not what God originally created us to eat.

Now, if a banana ever yelps in pain if I step on it, I would change my view drastically, lol.

I am also curious if insects, for example, or fish feel pain. Obviously they have escape as part of their instincts, but I don't know if they feel pain or not. ?

Peace and God bless you

[miser]

I thought this was a well-thought-out post, and the negs I suppose are a mix of people's dislike of religion and of ethical vegetarianism. To me, I think you make a good case that vegetarianism is at least biblically justifiable, although I would say that god seems to show no further sympathy for animals (considering for example his demands for sacrifices and so on). I think though that if you consider your religion to be about expanding your circle of empathy and trying to reduce the suffering in the world, vegetarianism is a natural extension from where a lot of modern cultures are today. This idea of extending moral consideration towards animals is relatively recent in human history, and it's likely that the trend will continue, though how far it will go remains open for speculation. It will be interesting to see if there are changes in our lifetime.