Why is it fair for people with money to get a better education than me?
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Surely it should incentivize you to work harder and offer your kids a better future
This was posted from The Student Room's Android App on my LT26i
This was posted from The Student Room's Android App on my LT26i
Maybe it's not necessarily just the actual school, but the types of people. For example, someone very interested in education will stay on and earn a lot of money, possibly enough to send one or several children to private schools (I'm not talking about Eton or anything, just a standard private school). Throughout his children's upbringings, he would convey the message that "learning is great" on his child. The children will go to school with this attitude, and do well because of it, and because they are surrounded by others with this attitude. They will then do well at school and the cycle continues. Whereas, an environment where children attend a state school (excluding grammar schools, the attitudes of children in those can be compared to those of private schools, and the earnings of parents are similar from what I have seen) can actually be damaging to the child's education, because they are subconsciously forced into the belief that only geeks do well. This may not necessarily come from their parents, but other students as well. Of course, certain students will excel in any environment, and I have always found that they seem to have parents which convey the message that "education is great!"
Original post by im so academic
What do you propose? Communism?
Because that'll make society equal.
Because that'll make society equal.
No. I propose something must be done to close the massive gap between state and private schools.
Original post by gm15
So lets just ban private schools and force the private school kids to get a worse education without improving education for anyone?
Yes you could look at it like that.
Or.. let's make things fairer for 92%: of kids who aren't priviliged enough to go to these private schools. And this notion would prompt change.
Original post by Deep456
It was your fault, you got what you deserved.
Bottom line is you failed to motivate yourself, it is a good job your parents didn't waste their money putting you in a private school where you would have done similar things. You can't turn donkeys into horses, a private school wouldn't suddenly be able to motivate you. In fact, performing worse against your peers would only have demotivated you further.
Bottom line is you failed to motivate yourself, it is a good job your parents didn't waste their money putting you in a private school where you would have done similar things. You can't turn donkeys into horses, a private school wouldn't suddenly be able to motivate you. In fact, performing worse against your peers would only have demotivated you further.
Total BS.
You can't plan out someone's life based on how they perform when they're kids with minimal responsibility. Equally you can't just say "private schools only welcome the best" because tests for someone young does not mention this. It was only until I reached year 11 I realised I'd had responsibilities and had to work. This mindset was non existant to me before then in contrast to how it's drummed into everyone at private schools.
Again, I don't care what they do differently in both schools but the gap between them should tighten.
Original post by Miracle Day
Yes you could look at it like that.
Or.. let's make things fairer for 92%: of kids who aren't priviliged enough to go to these private schools. And this notion would prompt change.
Or.. let's make things fairer for 92%: of kids who aren't priviliged enough to go to these private schools. And this notion would prompt change.
When would you stop though? Our state schools are a billion times better than the tanzanian schools i've visited...means we're privileged...must be unfair...must equal everyone...let's make our schools as basic as their schools (or whoever has the worst). That's what you do when somebody has it better than the majority - you make their lives worse till they are equal to the majority even if life doesn't get better for the majority.
Original post by Deep456
You clearly didn't read my post......
Despite barely attending lessons due to illness at A-level, I did fine.... people need to stop blaming teachers and take some responsibility. It isn't always someone elses fault. GCSEs are a doodle and anyone can do well in them if they revise using CGP books. When I got rejected from Oxford and indeed other institutions, it wasn't because of racism or because of my teachers or some other bull**** excuse, it was because of my mistakes and I clearly wasn't good enough at that time. The problem we have is a society where no one takes responsibility for their own actions.
A grammar school is still a state school and free education funded by the Government. There is nothing stopping you from going to a grammar school except your own intelligence....The fact you cannot even spell grammar says leaps and bounds. I am sorry if this comes across as a personal attack but I am in a far better position having attended both a state and private school than 99.5% here . Indeed, than those who pass comment who have no experience of both sectors. On top of that, contrary to popular belief, a grammar school gets MUCH, MUCH less funding than a normal comprehensive so if anything, we are worse off.
Also I have self-taught A-levels this year in my own time and on course to get As, so it can be done...
Edit: I am sorry, I am not always this mean or blunt.
Despite barely attending lessons due to illness at A-level, I did fine.... people need to stop blaming teachers and take some responsibility. It isn't always someone elses fault. GCSEs are a doodle and anyone can do well in them if they revise using CGP books. When I got rejected from Oxford and indeed other institutions, it wasn't because of racism or because of my teachers or some other bull**** excuse, it was because of my mistakes and I clearly wasn't good enough at that time. The problem we have is a society where no one takes responsibility for their own actions.
A grammar school is still a state school and free education funded by the Government. There is nothing stopping you from going to a grammar school except your own intelligence....The fact you cannot even spell grammar says leaps and bounds. I am sorry if this comes across as a personal attack but I am in a far better position having attended both a state and private school than 99.5% here . Indeed, than those who pass comment who have no experience of both sectors. On top of that, contrary to popular belief, a grammar school gets MUCH, MUCH less funding than a normal comprehensive so if anything, we are worse off.
Also I have self-taught A-levels this year in my own time and on course to get As, so it can be done...
Edit: I am sorry, I am not always this mean or blunt.
Yes, I did read your post. Apologies for rushed spelling.
I'm not blaming teachers. I had a teacher in my own school who used to work at a private school and would often repeat that her teaching was no different.
As has been discussed here, it's more a difference in attitude in the pupils themselves. I'm sorry that you suffered illness, but that almost proves my point. It was the attitude instilled, most likely from your private school background, and then continued during your time at grammar school, which allowed you to achieve dispite illness.
My point before, was that while being state funded, a grammar school is a million miles away from the experience you'd get from a 'real' comprehensive state school.
If you must know, I did get a place at a grammar school, but it would have meant 2 hours on a bus everyday, so I chose the comprehensive that I could walk to.
Due to the massive oversubscription problems that all state funded schools face, you are completely and unbelievably incorrect in your assumption that 'There is nothing stopping you from going to a grammar school except your own intelligence'. Depending on the area, some children are lucky to be offered a school at all, regardless of how bad the school or intelligent the student!
On a completely different tack, it anyone really intelligent at 10/11?! Certainly anyone who thinks so I'd deem as very unintelligent!
I almost went to a private school, but it would've taken longer to travel there and I would've had to wake up early, so I think my grades were better staying at the closer public school. I still think its the person, not the teachers. If that wasn't true then nobody would pass University which is self-teaching.
Original post by lottie44442
Yes, I did read your post. Apologies for rushed spelling.
I'm not blaming teachers. I had a teacher in my own school who used to work at a private school and would often repeat that her teaching was no different.
As has been discussed here, it's more a difference in attitude in the pupils themselves. I'm sorry that you suffered illness, but that almost proves my point. It was the attitude instilled, most likely from your private school background, and then continued during your time at grammar school, which allowed you to achieve dispite illness.
My point before, was that while being state funded, a grammar school is a million miles away from the experience you'd get from a 'real' comprehensive state school.
If you must know, I did get a place at a grammar school, but it would have meant 2 hours on a bus everyday, so I chose the comprehensive that I could walk to.
Due to the massive oversubscription problems that all state funded schools face, you are completely and unbelievably incorrect in your assumption that 'There is nothing stopping you from going to a grammar school except your own intelligence'. Depending on the area, some children are lucky to be offered a school at all, regardless of how bad the school or intelligent the student!
On a completely different tack, it anyone really intelligent at 10/11?! Certainly anyone who thinks so I'd deem as very unintelligent!
I'm not blaming teachers. I had a teacher in my own school who used to work at a private school and would often repeat that her teaching was no different.
As has been discussed here, it's more a difference in attitude in the pupils themselves. I'm sorry that you suffered illness, but that almost proves my point. It was the attitude instilled, most likely from your private school background, and then continued during your time at grammar school, which allowed you to achieve dispite illness.
My point before, was that while being state funded, a grammar school is a million miles away from the experience you'd get from a 'real' comprehensive state school.
If you must know, I did get a place at a grammar school, but it would have meant 2 hours on a bus everyday, so I chose the comprehensive that I could walk to.
Due to the massive oversubscription problems that all state funded schools face, you are completely and unbelievably incorrect in your assumption that 'There is nothing stopping you from going to a grammar school except your own intelligence'. Depending on the area, some children are lucky to be offered a school at all, regardless of how bad the school or intelligent the student!
On a completely different tack, it anyone really intelligent at 10/11?! Certainly anyone who thinks so I'd deem as very unintelligent!
I would certainly say so. I think a lot of research has been done which shows the most critical area of education is at primary school-level. This is where much of intelligence based learning actually takes place.
Though I am not claiming to be intelligent, I failed to get into the local grammars back then (which I later got into with ease) and of course some people do develop at a slower rate. I travelled 3 hours a day, waking up at 6:15 to leave at 7:00 to get to school by 8:30 and gave up sacrifices even at the age of 11, so I am sorry but I don't really buy that argument.
Even my grammar school, I had to get the bus each way and probably about 1h 30 mins in total (still half the time I was travelling than before). You can't expect everything to be given to you on your doorstep which was my point.
With serious illness, severe travelling from the age of 11 and other factors in my life, I was still able to achieve. Call me a cynic but the only person that holds someone back is themselves.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by gm15
When would you stop though? Our state schools are a billion times better than the tanzanian schools i've visited...means we're privileged...must be unfair...must equal everyone...let's make our schools as basic as their schools (or whoever has the worst). That's what you do when somebody has it better than the majority - you make their lives worse till they are equal to the majority even if life doesn't get better for the majority.
Our government educational policy is to do with the education in our country and not Tanzania's. They don't pay taxes to fund our education system so they have nothing to do with this argument.
A basic education is not something that should be commodified. Education should be based not upon a students parents purchasing power, but rather education should be geared towards providing opportunities to all students based on their aptitude and ability.
Original post by im so academic
What do you propose? Communism?
Because that'll make society equal.
Because that'll make society equal.
One does not imply that they want to instill a communist regime by merely stating that private schools are intrinsically unfair.
I think largely speaking the apparent advantage that private schools give are down to socio-economic factors. After all, even within the same state school, the figures show that children with more wealthy parents tend to get better results. Furthermore, those parents who choose to spend the money on sending their child to a private school will be supportive, motivated parents for whom education is a priority.
Private schools are also invariably selective, so they weed out the particularly thick ones who drag down the results of other schools. Through interviews, they are also able to reject children who are not interested in their own education, and it is relatively easy to expel (sorry "ask to leave") a child from a private school, and so discipline can be kept fairly tight.
Due to these factors, private schools can then attract more experienced state school teachers (often those who feel they are getting too old to deal with the bad behaviour that some state schools experience), even if the pay is no better or slightly worse. Better funding can also mean that class sizes are smaller, although this is not the case in all private schools.
Anyway, I tend to think that a good proportion of the apparent success of private schools is often not down to their own actions, but due to the socio-economic pool (and the ability to avoid the thick pupils) from which they draw their pupils, hence why some state grammar schools are better than some private schools.
(For the sake of disclosure, I have been to both a state and a private school).
Private schools are also invariably selective, so they weed out the particularly thick ones who drag down the results of other schools. Through interviews, they are also able to reject children who are not interested in their own education, and it is relatively easy to expel (sorry "ask to leave") a child from a private school, and so discipline can be kept fairly tight.
Due to these factors, private schools can then attract more experienced state school teachers (often those who feel they are getting too old to deal with the bad behaviour that some state schools experience), even if the pay is no better or slightly worse. Better funding can also mean that class sizes are smaller, although this is not the case in all private schools.
Anyway, I tend to think that a good proportion of the apparent success of private schools is often not down to their own actions, but due to the socio-economic pool (and the ability to avoid the thick pupils) from which they draw their pupils, hence why some state grammar schools are better than some private schools.
(For the sake of disclosure, I have been to both a state and a private school).
Original post by zedbrar
Our government educational policy is to do with the education in our country and not Tanzania's. They don't pay taxes to fund our education system so they have nothing to do with this argument.
A basic education is not something that should be commodified. Education should be based not upon a students parents purchasing power, but rather education should be geared towards providing opportunities to all students based on their aptitude and ability.
One does not imply that they want to instill a communist regime by merely stating that private schools are intrinsically unfair.
A basic education is not something that should be commodified. Education should be based not upon a students parents purchasing power, but rather education should be geared towards providing opportunities to all students based on their aptitude and ability.
One does not imply that they want to instill a communist regime by merely stating that private schools are intrinsically unfair.
Well atleast someone's on my side!
Original post by Miracle Day
Well atleast someone's on my side!
I have seen similar threads before. In a previous thread similar to this, the majority were against private schools whereas the opposite is true in this thread.
I assume however that a lot of members on TSR go to private school, grammar schools and high achieving state schools tbh which would make our side of the argument an up-hill battle.
Original post by zedbrar
I have seen similar threads before. In a previous thread similar to this, the majority were against private schools whereas the opposite is true in this thread.
I assume however that a lot of members on TSR go to private school, grammar schools and high achieving state schools tbh which would make our side of the argument an up-hill battle.
I assume however that a lot of members on TSR go to private school, grammar schools and high achieving state schools tbh which would make our side of the argument an up-hill battle.
How far are you willing to go?
Ban any parents from hiring private tutors? If yes, then surely you're also going to ban parents who are have degrees from top universities from tutoring their children? If no, why not? Private tutoring is unfair considering poorer students can't afford it and allowing it will just mean unofficial private schools are born.
And why should we restrict education to British? Why is it fair that a person born in Somalia can't have access to our education?
Original post by Aramiss18
So you don't disagree that it is morally wrong for children to have a better education and therefore prospects due to their birth but think it's something we should just accept as it would be extremely difficult to equalise? I think adults owe it to future children to be more ambitious with policy.
Not that I'm disagreeing with you, I have no opinion but don't you think that there are children born into worse circumstances just by chance than not being able to afford private education? What about the 3rd world where children can't have any education. Or food. That's not fair but who's going to do anything about that?
Original post by Roaroaroar
How far are you willing to go?
Ban any parents from hiring private tutors? If yes, then surely you're also going to ban parents who are have degrees from top universities from tutoring their children? If no, why not? Private tutoring is unfair considering poorer students can't afford it and allowing it will just mean unofficial private schools are born.
And why should we restrict education to British? Why is it fair that a person born in Somalia can't have access to our education?
Ban any parents from hiring private tutors? If yes, then surely you're also going to ban parents who are have degrees from top universities from tutoring their children? If no, why not? Private tutoring is unfair considering poorer students can't afford it and allowing it will just mean unofficial private schools are born.
And why should we restrict education to British? Why is it fair that a person born in Somalia can't have access to our education?
Please quote any post of mine saying that I wish to ban private tutoring. I support us adopting a Finnish style education system. In the Finnish education system there exists no private schools. In Finland the first examination students take are at age 16. At 16, you can quiet easily get a job and pay for private tutoring if your parents can't afford it. There is also little need for private tutoring at younger ages when there is no rush to pass examinations at 11 years old which decide your future education. But if parents so wish to pay for their children to have private tutoring when they are young, they are free to as that is outside the education system.
I don't believe that our education system should be commodified. It should be free from all bias and provide a quality education to all students based on their aptitude and not on their parents income.
Why not let someone from Somalia get educated here? Well for starters, it wouldn't be possible to do that because right wing people on TSR would have a field day complaining about immigration.
Original post by Beckyweck
Not that I'm disagreeing with you, I have no opinion but don't you think that there are children born into worse circumstances just by chance than not being able to afford private education? What about the 3rd world where children can't have any education. Or food. That's not fair but who's going to do anything about that?
So you are saying that because someone somewhere is worse off, we can't justify improving our own circumstances and therefore must accept the unfair status quo?
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by zedbrar
Please quote any post of mine saying that I wish to ban private tutoring. I support us adopting a Finnish style education system. In the Finnish education system there exists no private schools. In Finland the first examination students take are at age 16. At 16, you can quiet easily get a job and pay for private tutoring if your parents can't afford it. There is also little need for private tutoring at younger ages when there is no rush to pass examinations at 11 years old which decide your future education. But if parents so wish to pay for their children to have private tutoring when they are young, they are free to as that is outside the education system.
I don't believe that our education system should be commodified. It should be free from all bias and provide a quality education to all students based on their aptitude and not on their parents income.
Why not let someone from Somalia get educated here? Well for starters, it wouldn't be possible to do that because right wing people on TSR would have a field day complaining about immigration.
I don't believe that our education system should be commodified. It should be free from all bias and provide a quality education to all students based on their aptitude and not on their parents income.
Why not let someone from Somalia get educated here? Well for starters, it wouldn't be possible to do that because right wing people on TSR would have a field day complaining about immigration.
I never said you made that claim, I'm talking your fairness argument to it's logical conclusion.
No, there are different qualities to private tutoring just like there are different qualities in private education from Eton to some unkown random private school. Poorer children won't be able to afford high-cost tutors from universities like Oxbridge and 16 year old won't be able to work very much due to school-work and you're putting them at a disadvantage by forcing them to work when rich kids get the luxury of focusing more on tuition and their parents covering the cost. Also, are you a biological essentialist? Do you believe our genetics determine our grades? If not, then surely you can understand how getting private tuition from the age of 5 puts you at a advantage in comparison to someone who gets private tutoring from age 16?
Also, what about private-home schooling? Or group-homeschooling?
So? In the real world, private schools aren't going to get banned. Doesn't stop you from advocating their ban.
Original post by Roaroaroar
I never said you made that claim, I'm talking your fairness argument to it's logical conclusion.
No, there are different qualities to private tutoring just like there are different qualities in private education from Eton to some unkown random private school. Poorer children won't be able to afford high-cost tutors from universities like Oxbridge and 16 year old won't be able to work very much due to school-work and you're putting them at a disadvantage by forcing them to work when rich kids get the luxury of focusing more on tuition and their parents covering the cost. Also, are you a biological essentialist? Do you believe our genetics determine our grades? If not, then surely you can understand how getting private tuition from the age of 5 puts you at a advantage in comparison to someone who gets private tutoring from age 16?
Also, what about private-home schooling? Or group-homeschooling?
So? In the real world, private schools aren't going to get banned. Doesn't stop you from advocating their ban.
No, there are different qualities to private tutoring just like there are different qualities in private education from Eton to some unkown random private school. Poorer children won't be able to afford high-cost tutors from universities like Oxbridge and 16 year old won't be able to work very much due to school-work and you're putting them at a disadvantage by forcing them to work when rich kids get the luxury of focusing more on tuition and their parents covering the cost. Also, are you a biological essentialist? Do you believe our genetics determine our grades? If not, then surely you can understand how getting private tuition from the age of 5 puts you at a advantage in comparison to someone who gets private tutoring from age 16?
Also, what about private-home schooling? Or group-homeschooling?
So? In the real world, private schools aren't going to get banned. Doesn't stop you from advocating their ban.
Equal opportunities for all children going to the same type of school = within the education system.
Equal opportunities for all children not being allowed private tutoring etc = outside the education system.
We must focus on the former.
Just because there'll still be inequality doesn't mean we can't try and fix this one.
Original post by Miracle Day
Equal opportunities for all children going to the same type of school = within the education system.
Equal opportunities for all children not being allowed private tutoring etc = outside the education system.
We must focus on the former.
Just because there'll still be inequality doesn't mean we can't try and fix this one.
Equal opportunities for all children not being allowed private tutoring etc = outside the education system.
We must focus on the former.
Just because there'll still be inequality doesn't mean we can't try and fix this one.
Exactly but we can fix the other inequality by banning private tutoring and home-schooling as well as having a set price for all text-books and educational materials.
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