[tomp33]

No its not fair. I agree, although I am not entirely anti private school.
Personally, I attend a grammer school which is like a private school in terms of the facilities and grades we get. Most people at mine come out with top grades, so there are other ways round it...

Also, for the people saying that the good teachers should go to state schools. Too many kids dont want to learn there. I know teachers at my (grammer) school who wouldnt go to a state school because they dont like how rude some kids are.
Its life.
I feel kinda sorry for you lot stuck in the council school system. I guess im fairly privileged in some respects.

[Mendeleev's Table]

(Original post by Miracle Day)
1. You can't say the stats are bull**** anyway, because they correlate with what common sense tells us.
2. It makes perfect sense, but here's it in the simple terms I guess you may need.
Hypothetical:
In England, people live until they're 15 years old on average.
In Wales, people live until they're 20 years old on average.
Im Welsh, and I'm 17 years old.
I can say "If I was English I would probably be dead now.
In this context:
People in Private schools get significantly better grades than people in state schools.
I go to a state school.
Therefore I'm entitled to say I would probably get better grades if I went to one.
3. No I haven't changed my stance. All I want is for the gap between both schools to be less.

I didn't say the stats were rubbish, I said your comprehension of them was.
2. Read back your old post, you didn't say that. You also did not say probably in the old post I first referred to. You've contradicted yourself and have been inconsistent with your posts. How exactly is that my fault?
3. As the poster above said, so long as you don't intefere with private schools then go ahead

[Ocassus]

(Original post by Miracle Day)
Yeah. For one I am extremely jealous of those who go to private schools but I also acknowledge they can't just be removed. I think gradually the gap between them should close until private schools become extremely useless because you get the same in both schools.

Yep, sounds good, we agree then.

Thing is though, it'll be very hard for you to accomplish that with the current standard of state schooling. Grammar schools, more emphasis on discipline, hell even tradition, all makes private schools better at their job. tell the hand wringing softies that what most children need is a good kick up the bum to do well. I highly doubt we'll be seeing state school kids dressed as Etonians any time soon for this exact reason.


Also it would be pragmatically impossible for you to make every school equal. Some 'elite' schools would have to exist. Schools like mine put emphasis on high end athletes, and as such it has the best facilities in the country to accommodate that. Under the current system, only the parents pay for this fancy shiz, but if it was nationalised then the state would have to pay for this 'elitist' party. Not every school could have this stuff either, it would have to be used for the people who had the most potential in that given field.
The same works for academia too. Some schools will have fantastic tech facilities, some will have world class English teachers etcetera. You cannot homogenise in this fashion which will ultimately be the downfall of any artificial 'fairness' leveller people use to measure the education system by, there are simply too many variables to manage. Get it wrong, and you destroy excellence.

You shouldn't be jealous of people in Private schools either, you should take what you have and use it to your advantage. They don't get different textbooks to you, most of the time they don't get different exams to you. Nothing is stopping you from picking up a book and learning, which ultimately even we have to do. I got no coaching for my subject interviews at Oxford, i did some practice interviews, but I had to learn all subject matter over a period of two years of intensive self-study. In my view, if you want it bad enough, then you have to view nothing as an obstacle, not our background, not your education, nothing. Never ever place the blame of not succeeding on somebody elses shoulders, carry every failure with you for whatever reason and use it to better yourself, only cowards say that they aren't where they want to be because of someone else in my view.

[tomp33]

(Original post by Miracle Day)
The title is more of a crowd drawer than my actual opinion, I'm still undecided on the 'private school issue' but I'm prepared to swing either way so convince me otherwise TSR.

I was just speaking to a girl who told me she wants to do Law in KCL, and she told me her brother got 12 A*s and she got 8 A*s. Me and my brothers went to state schools and I never got a single A*, one had mostly Cs and one had mostly Ds. So I've done much better than my brothers.

At first I thought wow for both to get such good grades they must have really good parents. But then I decided to ask "Do you go to a private school or state school?" She answered "Private school."

For both to have done so well having gone to a private school, I'm assuming this a common thing? Where as my school is a band 1 state school (Top band) and the highest achieved grade was 11 A* and 1 A, the second was 7A* and it went down from there out of 200 people. My GCSEs were considered well above average for my school. I can't however apply to the top Universities because my GCSEs aren't as good compared to, say, people on TSR and I am a hard worker.

So why is it that people who go to private schools get better grades? Why is their standard of education so high and why can't teachers in state schools copy it?

I'm just wondering, so discuss.

Oh, and I don't think there are welsh private schools are there?


Before anyone tries telling me their own opinions or situations e.g "I went to a private school and failed all of my GCSEs" here are some facts taken from the BBC and elsewhere.

8% of Children go to private schools, 92% go to state schools.
50% of Oxbridge undergrads are from private schools.
More than half of all students in Private schools come out with A or A* GCSE grades.
38% of all children getting three As or better at A-level are from Private schools.
"Pupils at private schools are more than three times as likely to get AAB in the key A level subjects that help candidates gain access to top universities as those in state schools, according to the first analysis of its kind released by the government." ~ Nick Clegg

Just wondering,
Whats your stance on grammer schools?? Being as there still selective and you have as much chance (actually they usually get better than private schools, my schools gets better grades than eton ) of getting grades.

[im so academic]

(Original post by zedbrar)
You don't control it I said they must accept students regardless of these factors...I didn't say they should accept students based on these factors.

But they would have to as they are the local students.

What would happen is that there will be an even greater division between the rich and the poor areas. With those having excellent and poor schools respectively.

I have yet to see such students exist. All kids enter school and love to learn...but bad experiences can put kids off learning. It is all about having enthusiatic teachers who can engage the children. I went through a stage where I just gave up and couldn't be bothered and it is mainly due to bad experiences and not because I had no desire to learn.

Well those students do exist.

Because I chose to be born to parents with little to no education One cannot control the circumstances they are born into thus why should it be such a controlling factor is ones education?

No, you can't control the circumstances you were born in, but you can change your future if you actually took the opportunities given to you and worked for them.

[Miracle Day]

(Original post by Ocassus)
Yep, sounds good, we agree then.

Thing is though, it'll be very hard for you to accomplish that with the current standard of state schooling. Grammar schools, more emphasis on discipline, hell even tradition, all makes private schools better at their job. tell the hand wringing softies that what most children need is a good kick up the bum to do well. I highly doubt we'll be seeing state school kids dressed as Etonians any time soon for this exact reason.


Also it would be pragmatically impossible for you to make every school equal. Some 'elite' schools would have to exist. Schools like mine put emphasis on high end athletes, and as such it has the best facilities in the country to accommodate that. Under the current system, only the parents pay for this fancy shiz, but if it was nationalised then the state would have to pay for this 'elitist' party. Not every school could have this stuff either, it would have to be used for the people who had the most potential in that given field.
The same works for academia too. Some schools will have fantastic tech facilities, some will have world class English teachers etcetera. You cannot homogenise in this fashion which will ultimately be the downfall of any artificial 'fairness' leveller people use to measure the education system by, there are simply too many variables to manage. Get it wrong, and you destroy excellence.

You shouldn't be jealous of people in Private schools either, you should take what you have and use it to your advantage. They don't get different textbooks to you, most of the time they don't get different exams to you. Nothing is stopping you from picking up a book and learning, which ultimately even we have to do. I got no coaching for my subject interviews at Oxford, i did some practice interviews, but I had to learn all subject matter over a period of two years of intensive self-study. In my view, if you want it bad enough, then you have to view nothing as an obstacle, not our background, not your education, nothing. Never ever place the blame of not succeeding on somebody elses shoulders, carry every failure with you for whatever reason and use it to better yourself, only cowards say that they aren't where they want to be because of someone else in my view.

Perhaps if teachers could punish, and dish out after-school detention etc things would change -.-

[Ocassus]

(Original post by Miracle Day)
Perhaps if teachers could punish, and dish out after-school detention etc things would change -.-

Its more than that, see my first post in this thread for what I think the solutions are. It will take one hell of a long time to shift the attitude of today's youth to viewing achievement as a good thing and encouraging it, rather than forcing gifted pupils away and fostering a destructive atmosphere.

[The Epicurean]

(Original post by im so academic)
But they would have to as they are the local students.

What would happen is that there will be an even greater division between the rich and the poor areas. With those having excellent and poor schools respectively.

Accepting local students is not discrimination.

Society needs to work on reducing those inequalities. However sadly these inequalities are getting larger because we are not dealing with them.

(Original post by im so academic)
Well those students do exist.

All kids are naturally inquisitive and love to ask questions. Whenever with young kids, it is almost impossible to get them to stop asking questions. If this passion dies it is most likely due to a bad education.

(Original post by im so academic)
No, you can't control the circumstances you were born in, but you can change your future if you actually took the opportunities given to you and worked for them.

This is what I have been arguing the whoel time. Everybody should be given a fair chance at improving their life. But, sadly this is currently not true atm and thus we have an endless cycle. You are born to a poor family, chances are you will get a sub-par education and get a low paying job and events will repeat with their progeny

[HughKit]

thats why we should have grammar schools, so pupils get a better education if they are rich OR have a good work ethic/ are talented.

yes it is harsh on kids who dont get in, but the pros seem to outweigh the cons

[im so academic]

(Original post by zedbrar)
Accepting local students is not discrimination.

No it's not, but banning private schools would create schools just for rich kids and schools just for poor kids.

Society needs to work on reducing those inequalities. However sadly these inequalities are getting larger because we are not dealing with them.

Dealing with them using your ideas would also increase those inequalities.

All kids are naturally inquisitive and love to ask questions. Whenever with young kids, it is almost impossible to get them to stop asking questions. If this passion dies it is most likely due to a bad education.

Explain how some kids at private school aren't bothered to learn then.

This is what I have been arguing the whoel time. Everybody should be given a fair chance at improving their life. But, sadly this is currently not true atm and thus we have an endless cycle. You are born to a poor family, chances are you will get a sub-par education and get a low paying job and events will repeat with their progeny

It's impossible for everyone to have the same chance in life.

[Aasimzz]

It's not fair. My cousin went to the same primary school. My cousin at his house was tuted 3x a week at the age of 8. He went to my high school but got a place at boarding school in Oxford. Due to this extra 1-1 private tutoring I hear he's getting A's. Where as I am getting grade B's in subjects. I cannot afford all of this. If everyone went to private schools and had the same teaching quality. We shall then see who is getting A's.

[MrHappy_J]

(Original post by tomp33)
No its not fair. I agree, although I am not entirely anti private school.
Personally, I attend a grammer school which is like a private school in terms of the facilities and grades we get. Most people at mine come out with top grades, so there are other ways round it...

Also, for the people saying that the good teachers should go to state schools. Too many kids dont want to learn there. I know teachers at my (grammer) school who wouldnt go to a state school because they dont like how rude some kids are.
Its life.
I feel kinda sorry for you lot stuck in the council school system. I guess im fairly privileged in some respects.

If you really go to a grammar school then you should know how it's spelt.

[Ocassus]

(Original post by Aasimzz)
It's not fair. My cousin went to the same primary school. My cousin at his house was tuted 3x a week at the age of 8. He went to my high school but got a place at boarding school in Oxford. Due to this extra 1-1 private tutoring I hear he's getting A's. Where as I am getting grade B's in subjects. I cannot afford all of this. If everyone went to private schools and had the same teaching quality. We shall then see who is getting A's.

Then they wouldn't be Private schools.

[The Epicurean]

(Original post by im so academic)
No it's not, but banning private schools would create schools just for rich kids and schools just for poor kids.

Dealing with them using your ideas would also increase those inequalities.

Explain how some kids at private school aren't bothered to learn then.

It's impossible for everyone to have the same chance in life.

Fair enough, some good points you make

I'm not gonna write a reply because my hand is killing me atm so gonna call it a day.

[MrHappy_J]

(Original post by Ocassus)
Then they wouldn't be Private schools.

no problem thanks for the constructive PM.

[Ocassus]

(Original post by MrHappy_J)
no problem thanks for the constructive PM.

If you don't present constructive argument and mindlessly neg something you don't like then, please, get out of 'debate and current affairs'.

[AntoniaSMThomiln]

I go to a private school but I was at a state school for 7 years.
Personally, I have dyslexia and my state school failed to pick up on it...
Luckily my mum is a higher earner and was able to get me help...
I went from failing Maths to getting A*s
This was due to the better teaching and small class sizes

I think the education system needs to be reformed... the attitudes of teachers are totally different in private schools - they want to be there - this makes the students want to too

Also, Its down to how hard you want to work. One of my friends goes to one of the worst state schools in our borough and is going to achieve much better than me in GCSEs

People that fail at GCSEs and think its down to what school you go to is wrong, If you want to get the grades there's hundreds of websites and books - I just think its and excuse.

[Cinnamon_Twist]

(Original post by tomp33)
Just wondering,
Whats your stance on grammer schools?? Being as there still selective and you have as much chance (actually they usually get better than private schools, my schools gets better grades than eton ) of getting grades.

Just, FYI, Eton isn't famous for it's academics. It's famous because famous politicians and royalty went there and their incredible facilities and vast grounds are reflective of the astronomical fees. A lot of the very expensive private schools (Eton, Harrow, Haileybury etc) are incredibly mediocre in terms of academics, it is more their buildings, alumni and size that put them on the map- you don't need to be particularly clever to attend, you just need to be able to pay the huge fees.
I think grammar schools are very good; what's not to love- private school facilities with no fees! However, I think that grammar schools now are dominated by middle class children because their parents can afford to invest in tutors/books etc that help their children to pass the entrance tests. Essentially, it is now who can afford to pay for their children to do best on the test rather than actually taking bright pupils from impoverished backrounds getting a better education.

[Ocassus]

(Original post by Cinnamon_Twist)
Just, FYI, Eton isn't famous for it's academics. It's famous because famous politicians and royalty went there and their incredible facilities and vast grounds are reflective of the astronomical fees. A lot of the very expensive private schools (Eton, Harrow, Haileybury etc) are incredibly mediocre in terms of academics, it is more their buildings, alumni and size that put them on the map- you don't need to be particularly clever to attend, you just need to be able to pay the huge fees.
I think grammer schools are very good; what's not to love- private school facilities with no fees! However, I think that grammer schools now are dominated by middle class children because their parents can afford to invest in tutors/books etc that help their children to pass the entrance tests. Essentially, it is now who can afford to pay for their children to do best on the test rather than actually taking bright pupils from impoverished backrounds getting a better education.

Actually facility wise they are pretty average. It is tradition and prestige you pay for, facility wise they don't compare to some of the more modern Private schools.

And you do need to pass tests equivalent to the 11+ or in some cases harder, so saying that the majority of people who go there are just rich but mediocre individuals is not necessarily true. At best, a tiny minority of these students are inherent mediocre or stupid.

[o--taylor26]

i don't think you can look at individuals who went to state/private schools and did well or not.
Ultimately - take any group of people, be they rich or poor and there's going to be the same ability amongst the group.
Thus, the fact that private schools generally get better results just reflects better qualified teachers, smaller classes, more resources etc.
Having said that, i really think my education at a state school, albeit a pretty good one, has been a good experience. We had some massive classes and some bad teachers, but some great ones as well. More than anything, being with a diverse group of people and having to learn to do your own thing if you wanted good results etc. was really useful. But state schools are all different and some really let kids pass through the net.

I don't think private schools should be banned cos I think parents should be able to choose which school their kids go to. But i definitely think charitable status of private schools should be removed and some sort of taxes levied onto the school which could be funelled into improving state schools to equalise the situation.