[TCD23]

As the title states, what parties in the UK can be considered Libertarian? I'm assuming UKIP is one as well as the Libertarian Party (but they've only got something like 20 members), so which party out there would correlate with Libertarian views?

[DynamicSyngery]

UKIP is the only major-ish party that describes itself as libertarian, though its actual policies a fair bit to be desired.

[Carter78]

The Pirate Party (UK version) are Libertarian - I only know their German counter-parts to be honest but I presume both wings of the party hold similar views.

[Classical Liberal]

Liberal Democrats, Conservatives and UKIP all have Libertariany parts to them.

[prog2djent]

The Libertarian party (sort of inactive)
The Liberal party
The national liberal party
A certain sect of the Lib Dems, not the establishment MP's though.
Some Backbench tories that aren't the Old style Social Conservatives and near-UKIP converts.

UKIP aren't libertarian.

[DynamicSyngery]

(Original post by prog2djent)
UKIP aren't libertarian.

describes itself as libertarian. For instance, their description from their website: "Libertarian, non-racist party seeking Britain's withdrawal from the European Union."

Whether it actually is, that's a matter of opinion. I'd say it's more libertarian than the big 3, but far from ideologically pure.

[zcanf]

(Original post by prog2djent)
The Libertarian party (sort of inactive)
The Liberal party
The national liberal party
A certain sect of the Lib Dems, not the establishment MP's though.
Some Backbench tories that aren't the Old style Social Conservatives and near-UKIP converts.

UKIP aren't libertarian.

UKIP define themselves as libertarian, although this doesn't mean they are to our perception.

[prog2djent]

(Original post by DynamicSyngery)
describes itself as libertarian. For instance, their description from their website: "Libertarian, non-racist party seeking Britain's withdrawal from the European Union."

Whether it actually is, that's a matter of opinion. I'd say it's more libertarian than the big 3, but far from ideologically pure.

UKIP can call themselves whatever they want, "libertarian" (atleast right wing libers) has to mean you are socailly liberal, that's the.whole.point.

They seem to confuse economic liberalism with libertarianism, their social policies are all more authoritarian than the tory party, aside from maybe fox hunting, smoking (I don't know if they have a position on these, but they are probably for them) and free speach, the rest is just thatcherism.

There are two graphs showing (i'll find them on request) that they are essentially where the tories are on the political spectrum except +1 authoritarian ... derp.

I could call myself a statist because I think that the land value tax is a good idea and the state needs to be larger than it is now ... in certain areas. But that doesn't make me a statist.

They aren't "more libertarian than the big 3", the most libertarian party are the lib dems out of the main three and then the main 6 (including UKIP, Greens, BNP), they may not be as right wing but the whole point of libertarianism is that you can be a leftist or rightist and still be very socially liberal.

Edit:

I disagree with where the greens are but still ....

[DynamicSyngery]

(Original post by prog2djent)
UKIP can call themselves whatever they want, "libertarian" (atleast right wing libers) has to mean you are socailly liberal, that's the.whole.point.

They seem to confuse economic liberalism with libertarianism, their social policies are all more authoritarian than the tory party, aside from maybe fox hunting, smoking (I don't know if they have a position on these, but they are probably for them) and free speach, the rest is just thatcherism.

1. Economic liberalism is part of libertarianism.

2. http://ukip.org/content/ukip-policie...ce-ukip-policy What about elected chief commissioners, withdrawing from EU arrest warrant, or strengthening right to self-defence is authoritarian?

3. None of that contradicts what I said, which as only that they described themselves as libertarian. I even said their policies left a lot to be desired...

There are two graphs showing (i'll find them on request) that they are essentially where the tories are on the political spectrum except +1 authoritarian ... derp.

If you believe political compass, Blair, Bush and Thatcher were a hair's breadth from Hitler. It's a lot of partisan nonsense that uses a very dubious methodology.

[prog2djent]

(Original post by DynamicSyngery)
1. Economic liberalism is part of libertarianism.

2. http://ukip.org/content/ukip-policie...ce-ukip-policy What about elected chief commissioners, withdrawing from EU arrest warrant, or strengthening right to self-defence is authoritarian?

3. None of that contradicts what I said, which as only that they described themselves as libertarian. I even said their policies left a lot to be desired...


If you believe political compass, Blair, Bush and Thatcher were a hair's breadth from Hitler. It's a lot of partisan nonsense that uses a very dubious methodology.

"economic liberalism is a part of libertarianism", erm, OK, that's like 30% true, this only applies to moderate to far right libertarians. "Free Markets"/capitalism have only been a feature of Libertarianism since the 20th century austrians, Rothbard heavily populized it, and then it went from there. The recent surge comes from that old but harmless and well-intentioned coot Ron Paul.

Libertarianism, before Mises, was a term used synonymously with anarchism/socialism. And still is to many europeans, and the anarchist and non-marxian socialists.

I would think that UKIP want to remove the EU arrest warrent thing because they think its not harsh enough, UKIP want to repeal a lot of EU laws only to replace them with British ones which would be more authoritative.

I suppose you could call the position of wanting more localised laws libertarian, in itself, but replace them with harsher laws is the opposite.

I agree, the methodology of the political axis tests are not exactly super accurate, but the only thing that would correct that is more and more questions, and two types of graph/chart, placing you according to all political/economic/social theories from history, and the other, more localised, so for example a UK chart, where the UK Christian party are the most Authoritarian, and the pirate party the most libertarian, furthest right would be the UK libertarian party, and furthest left which ever party represents anarcho-communism (must be one out of the myriad of revolutionary parties).

Claiming that the politicans you mentioned would be close to Hitler is rediculous, for a start thatcher would be the furthest from his as she is moderatately right wing, then bush, then blair, and all three are about as authoritarian as each other, about half way up, +6, whereas Hitler was as authoritarian as it gets, maybe less so than saudi arabia and various Islamic caliphates, maybe -1 less hahahahaha, and he is syncrenetic in terms of left/right. Its easy to class Hitler far right, which would be true if we only worked with a linear left-right spectrum, but otherwise, he has some very left wing, and very economically statist policies, whilst being a fascist (which encorporates corporatism, a very scewed form of capitalism), and fits into the authoriatian right due to his social conservativism and nationalism.

[prog2djent]

I am arguing on this seeminly pointless topic beacuse the word libertarian has been pretty much tarnished, I'm not coming from this at an anarchist/socialist perspective, who the word was stolen from (much the same way progressives-social democrats stole liberal from right wing libertarians, used to be known as classical liberals until the progressives-soc dems stole it, and the classical liberals stole libertarian). The anarchists and revolutionary socialists at revleft get pretty angry at the fact libertarian now means right wing and socially liberal haha.

I come at it from the point the big names in libertarianism are Ron Paul and UKIP.

Who aren't remotely libertarian.

That's right I said it, Ron Paul Isn't a libertarian, not in the old sense (obviously), and not in the popular sense of right wing and socially liberal.

[MacDaddi]

You have individuals in partys, but there is no mainstream genuine Libertarian party. The Freedom Association is a cross-party association that Libers can identify themselves with in the HoC

The closest it gets is the Liberal Party (As in Classic Liberal) with a handful of counsellors.

[DynamicSyngery]

(Original post by prog2djent)
Libertarianism, before Mises, was a term used synonymously with anarchism/socialism.

And yet not anymore. Libertarianism is just what used to be called Liberalism before America infected us with another of their illiteracisms.

I would think that UKIP want to remove the EU arrest warrent thing because they think its not harsh enough, UKIP want to repeal a lot of EU laws only to replace them with British ones which would be more authoritative.

Wherever did they say that? As far as I know they oppose it because they don't think it should be possible for someone to be arrested by a foreign police force in Britain for breaking a foreign law.

and the pirate party the most libertarian,

Oh come on, as if that even has any policies. It's just a joke protest movement against IP.

Claiming that the politicans you mentioned would be close to Hitler is rediculous,

Political compass is ridiculous. But don't take my word for it:



Thatcher is mildly less authoritarian than Stalin. There's a bit more of a gap from Hitler - presumably because when Thatcher put millions of innocents for the sword she didn't do so for racial reasons.



But it's no better for Labour, which under Blair moved substatially to the right of Hitler and began approaching him in authoritarianism. While they remain only mildly authoritarian, even the Lib Dems are now to the right of Hitler.



And those were some fairly normal candidates. Moving across the pond, we see that Gary Johnson actually is Hitler, probably because he opposes abortion or something.

Interestingly in the written analysis attached to this graph, the Political Compass site owner goes totally off the deep end, accusing both the Democrats and the Republicans of being controlled by a shadowy oligarchic elite of corporations including one "operating an illegal spy ring targeting opponents of the US Chamber of Commerce". He concludes that "Whether or not the Republicans win the presidency, under a second term of Obama the party can remain confident that it will continue to frame the debates."

Why people take this website seriously, I have no idea.

[prog2djent]

(Original post by MacCuishy)
You have individuals in partys, but there is no mainstream genuine Libertarian party. The Freedom Association is a cross-party association that Libers can identify themselves with in the HoC

The closest it gets is the Liberal Party (As in Classic Liberal) with a handful of counsellors.

Wouldn't really call them classical liberal, given that they support progressive taxation, heavier inheritance taxes, more power to the govt with regards to the central bank/interest rates.

I haven't really reseached the liberals and national liberals too much, the latter have no real policies on their page, and I'll get round to reading each of the policies of the liberal in a bit, unless you can outline how they differ, from say the libertarian party?

[MacDaddi]

(Original post by prog2djent)
Wouldn't really call them classical liberal, given that they support progressive taxation, heavier inheritance taxes, more power to the govt with regards to the central bank/interest rates.

I haven't really reseached the liberals and national liberals too much, the latter have no real policies on their page, and I'll get round to reading each of the policies of the liberal in a bit, unless you can outline how they differ, from say the libertarian party?

I dont know much about them either. I said the closest it gets, which isnt really that close. You do have LPUK but they are just too small

[prog2djent]

(Original post by DynamicSyngery)

Lib Dems are now to the right of Hitler.

Gary Johnson actually is Hitler, probably because he opposes abortion or something.

Interestingly in the written analysis attached to this graph, the Political Compass site owner goes totally off the deep end, accusing both the Democrats and the Republicans of being controlled by a shadowy oligarchic elite of corporations including one "operating an illegal spy ring targeting opponents of the US Chamber of Commerce". He concludes that "Whether or not the Republicans win the presidency, under a second term of Obama the party can remain confident that it will continue to frame the debates."

Why people take this website seriously, I have no idea.

Most right wing people are more right wing than hitler, even centrists and new labour types, probably beacuse hitler hated capitalism and hated the free market. Remember he was a fascist, therefore a statist and corporatist, which is almost as anti free market as communism.

Whoever put Johnson there is an absolute Moron, I can agree with where the others are, but this person probably just doesn't personally like Johnson, for a start he is about as right wing as Romney and as Libertarian as the Stewart guy.

I agree with the man, the dems and republicans are both Business parties, they are the result of private interest, what new?

I can image he goes into a bunch of Illuminati nonsense though.

[prog2djent]

(Original post by MacCuishy)
You do have LPUK but they are just too small

Haven't they disbaned, something to do with corrupt leadership or theft?

[MacDaddi]

(Original post by prog2djent)
Haven't they disbaned, something to do with corrupt leadership or theft?

Their websites back up and they only posted yesterday.. I'm not sure.

[prog2djent]

(Original post by MacCuishy)
Their websites back up and they only posted yesterday.. I'm not sure.

http://theuklibertarian.com/
This one (Where I believe TRS user Chefdave used to argue with Davy a lots haha)

or http://libertarianpartyuk.com/

[muddywaters51]

(Original post by MacCuishy)
Their websites back up and they only posted yesterday.. I'm not sure.

They disbanded but have reformed and renewed themselves and have started fresh supposedly. They will probably end up going down the same road again.

OP you will not find a libertarian party in the UK that will be even slightly successful and I dont see it changing any time soon. The British public love the government giving them "free" stuff, they love relying on the government, they love the government telling them how to lives and telling others how to their lives and their favourite solution to any problem is "government" and regulations and restrictions. Very few people value freedom, liberty or privacy here