[prog2djent]

(Original post by Dee Leigh)
I sort of agree with what you are saying...

Imo the biggest problem I find are people with backwards barbaric cultures coming here and imposing them on others (and thinking that their culture is above the law). It also doesn't help when you've got the PC brigade bending over backwards to make excuses for them.

I've always held on to the idea that people that "bend over backwarda" for these people, are either doing just so they can appear to have the moral high ground, and to look superior, i.e, defending what is seen as moral is always perceived as being better than defending what it right, or speaking the truth. A form of self-gratification where similar minded people all agree with this person and get to feel good about how superior they are.

And my theory is that it stems from "western boredom", i.e, those born after, or during all the real racial (people being attacked or verbally abused beacuse of their race/religion instaed of being peacefully criticised for the opinions, cultural idendity, and actions they partake in), ethnic and religious tension, and after discrimination, free speach hampering, and equality laws have passed, these people are bored. They/we live in a (clearly) superior liberal culture, where there aren't any real threats, quality of life is high, and we are rich, so what do (some) people do when they have everthing, do they keep it, or is it tempting to mess around and get risky with it?

I.e, tolerating the intolerant. Now not long ago our society used to be equally as intolerant of certain people, but only on certain issues, but its changed very rapidly over 250 years.

I measure intolerance by wanting to place restrictions on peoples choices, in which no one is harmed, or act verbally or phyiscally against people, For example, in the 50's, if you were openly gay, your life was finished, you would be hated by the community, hated by the state, not given equal rights in courts, at work, or in society, being attacked would be socially acceptable, and you would have cruel (but well meaning) "doctors" trying to chemically make you straight. Now, by and large, gay people have the same rights as everyone else, and in some western countries, can marry. So we used to be intolerant of these people.

Now take a bunch of Pakistani-Muslims, and place them in our society, who have a culture and still use the religious influence to guide their actions/opinion on gay people, if we criticise them for being intolerant the leftist-liberals then foam at the mouth calling you"intolerant" or some sort of phobe.

These people are the problem, they are putting a smoke screen around the problem.

[.eXe]

(Original post by prog2djent)
Humanity will never progress until two thing are eradicated -

: Monotheistic, Abrahamic religions.
: Culture that would have been acceptable in the west ..... hundreds of years ago.

People who say "no culture is better than another, and to say so is discrimination/racism/some-kind of phobia" are brainless apologists who are the sort of people who are the problem.

I think you will find that humans have advanced just fine in the presence of religion. Or are you denying the last 50 years of amazing advances in pretty much all fields of thought.

It pisses me off when narrow minded kids like you take the offenses of one ideology to bash all ideologies together. Such an amateur argument.

This argument that the world doesn't advance due to religion is gibberish and utter nonsense. But thanks for trying.


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[Dee Leigh]

(Original post by prog2djent)
I've always held on to the idea that people that "bend over backwarda" for these people, are either doing just so they can appear to have the moral high ground, and to look superior, i.e, defending what is seen as moral is always perceived as being better than defending what it right, or speaking the truth. A form of self-gratification where similar minded people all agree with this person and get to feel good about how superior they are.

And my theory is that it stems from "western boredom", i.e, those born after, or during all the real racial (people being attacked or verbally abused beacuse of their race/religion instaed of being peacefully criticised for the opinions, cultural idendity, and actions they partake in), ethnic and religious tension, and after discrimination, free speach hampering, and equality laws have passed, these people are bored. They/we live in a (clearly) superior liberal culture, where there aren't any real threats, quality of life is high, and we are rich, so what do (some) people do when they have everthing, do they keep it, or is it tempting to mess around and get risky with it?

I.e, tolerating the intolerant. Now not long ago our society used to be equally as intolerant of certain people, but only on certain issues, but its changed very rapidly over 250 years.

I measure intolerance by wanting to place restrictions on peoples choices, in which no one is harmed, or act verbally or phyiscally against people, For example, in the 50's, if you were openly gay, your life was finished, you would be hated by the community, hated by the state, not given equal rights in courts, at work, or in society, being attacked would be socially acceptable, and you would have cruel (but well meaning) "doctors" trying to chemically make you straight. Now, by and large, gay people have the same rights as everyone else, and in some western countries, can marry. So we used to be intolerant of these people.

Now take a bunch of Pakistani-Muslims, and place them in our society, who have a culture and still use the religious influence to guide their actions/opinion on gay people, if we criticise them for being intolerant the leftist-liberals then foam at the mouth calling you"intolerant" or some sort of phobe.

These people are the problem, they are putting a smoke screen around the problem.

Known as the cultural/PC smokescreen.

I agree with your post

[prog2djent]

(Original post by .eXe)
I think you will find that humans have advanced just fine in the presence of religion. Or are you denying the last 50 years of amazing advances in pretty much all fields of thought.

It pisses me off when narrow minded kids like you take the offenses of one ideology to bash all ideologies together. Such an amateur argument.

This argument that the world doesn't advance due to religion is gibberish and utter nonsense. But thanks for trying.


Posted via TSR iPhone App

If we look at the countries with the last amount of religious belief, agnosticism, atheism or just "no religion/secular" and we look at them on the human development index, qualit .... ahhhh Fork it, I'm not going to waste my time with someone who loves to bash Islam but comes to double standard with regards to (what I assume) are their own Christian beliefes.

[.eXe]

(Original post by prog2djent)
If we look at the countries with the last amount of religious belief, agnosticism, atheism or just "no religion/secular" and we look at them on the human development index, qualit .... ahhhh Fork it, I'm not going to waste my time with someone who loves to bash Islam but comes to double standard with regards to (what I assume) are their own Christian beliefes.

No no please go ahead with your over-generalized and fallacious nonsense.

Just because I speak against Islam doesn't for a single second automatically mean that I am bashing organized belief systems.

Also, there is no double standard at all. Go look at the title of this thread. The thread is about a muslim mother trying to kill her daughter because her lifestyle brought shame and dishonour into the family and because Islam forbids women from wearing immodest clothing and the like.

Christianity has NOTHING like that. There is no damn rule or law or ideal in Christianity about wearing modest clothing and not bringing dishonour to the family or not living Westernized lifestyles or any nonsense like that. This is why, you never go on the news and find wide-spread incidents of Christian families wanting to kill their children for the types of lives they live or the clothes they wear or anything like that. However, stuff like that is rife in Islam.

You are taking one aspect of one belief system, and generalizing it to ALL belief systems.

Do you seriously think you have an argument here?

[Dee Leigh]

My opinions:

Her parents don't deserve to be called parents - the way they treated her was disgraceful.

I think it's more of a backwards cultural problem rather than a religious problem. Having said that, Sofia did end up leaving Islam and she hardly dates Asian guys (though this is not deliberate).

[.eXe]

(Original post by Dee Leigh)
My opinions:

Her parents don't deserve to be called parents - the way they treated her was disgraceful.

I think it's more of a backwards cultural problem rather than a religious problem. Having said that, Sofia did end up leaving Islam and she hardly dates Asian guys (though this is not deliberate).

Dont you think the fact she left islam kind of blatantly indicates that its an islamic problem? If its only cultural then why leave the faith?

Edit: yeah you coward, neg me go ahead lol. don't have the balls to stand up for your murderous religion?

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[Dee Leigh]

(Original post by .eXe)
Dont you think the fact she left islam kind of blatantly indicates that its an islamic problem? If its only cultural then why leave the faith?


Posted via TSR iPhone App

I guess you could look at it that way. The thing is, I am not completely clued up about Islam to come to that conclusion, but I don't believe religion advocates domestic violence. I know that in Christianity for example killing (or planning to kill) goes against Christianity and God and is very wrong - "thou salt not kill". Her parents could have been of a different religion, or they could have been athiests, but they could have still treated her in the way that they did.

I do strongly believe that backwards barbaric cultures (which have no place in Britain) was the problem for her and her family growing up, and it is a problem for a lot of people here who were born to parents from such cultures.

[Hummi_C]

(Original post by .eXe)
Dont you think the fact she left islam kind of blatantly indicates that its an islamic problem? If its only cultural then why leave the faith?


Posted via TSR iPhone App

Not necassarily, if she had such a terrible childhood that was so strongly associated with Islam, she might not have been able to go back to the religion without being reminded of her experience. The case has little to do with religion, seeing as in no religion does it say domestic abuse is ok.

[Christien]

4 pages, no Livia Soprano reference. Disappointing.

[Dee Leigh]

(Original post by Christien)
4 pages, no Livia Soprano reference. Disappointing.

What?

[jerseymackem]

(Original post by Dee Leigh)
Read this DM article (yeah yeah Fail Mail) ages ago, and then stumbled across it again recently:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...lifestyle.html

Opinions?

Oh, and by the way...

Spoiler:

Show

Don't turn this into a debate about Islam.

Best Jeremy Kyle Show EVER

[.eXe]

(Original post by Dee Leigh)
~

(Original post by Hummi_C)
~

In the article itself it says: "Sofia blames the way the Koran has been interpreted for her parents' cruel behaviour"

It's pretty clear where the problem lies. It's 100% religion.

[Dee Leigh]

(Original post by .eXe)
In the article itself it says: "Sofia blames the way the Koran has been interpreted for her parents' cruel behaviour"

It's pretty clear where the problem lies. It's 100% religion.

Then it's her parents' interpretation which is clearly the problem. It seems to me that they got religion and culture confused.

[.eXe]

(Original post by Dee Leigh)
Then it's her parents' interpretation which is clearly the problem. It seems to me that they got religion and culture confused.

Well it doesn't matter whether the interpretation is to blame or not. The overarching culprit is Islam.

I bet if you go ask the parents, they will say that their interpretation is correct.

Go head, I'll wager you my next paycheck.

Interpretation is debatable...but that doesn't change the central problem, which in this case is Islam.

Also, the bolded part is just a guess on your part and is thus invalid.

My post was based on a direct quote by the victim. You are guessing. Which do you think have more validity?

[Dee Leigh]

(Original post by .eXe)
Well it doesn't matter whether the interpretation is to blame or not. The overarching culprit is Islam.

I bet if you go ask the parents, they will say that their interpretation is correct.

Go head, I'll wager you my next paycheck.

Interpretation is debatable...but that doesn't change the central problem, which in this case is Islam.

Also, the bolded part is just a guess on your part and is thus invalid.

My post was based on a direct quote by the victim. You are guessing. Which do you think have more validity?

I wasn't guessing - part of the problem is that some get culture and religion mixed up. For example, in a senario where a girl is being forced into a marriage, her parents may say that she "has" to "agree" to the "arranged" marriage otherwise she is going against Allah. Now, forced marriages isn't favourable in any religion. Clearly it's a cultural thing (but culture and religion are being mixed up, and religion is being used as a weapon to conceal wrongdoing and justify actions, which is wrong).

[.eXe]

(Original post by Dee Leigh)
I wasn't guessing - part of the problem is that some get culture and religion mixed up. For example, in a senario where a girl is being forced into a marriage, her parents may say that she "has" to "agree" to the "arranged" marriage otherwise she is going against Allah. Now, forced marriages isn't favourable in any religion. Clearly it's a cultural thing (but culture and religion are being mixed up, and religion is being used as a weapon to conceal wrongdoing and justify actions, which is wrong).

Yes you may be right, but now you are talking about a different scenario. I am still discussing what happened to this girl in particular.

What happens in other cases is completely irrelevant here. Please discuss the case at hand instead of making general statements about what you think happens.

[Dee Leigh]

(Original post by .eXe)
Yes you may be right, but now you are talking about a different scenario. I am still discussing what happened to this girl in particular.

What happens in other cases is completely irrelevant here. Please discuss the case at hand instead of making general statements about what you think happens.

I was not making generic statements. Sofia's situation was really down to backwards and barbaric practices.

This was posted from The Student Room's Android App on my GT-S5830

[.eXe]

(Original post by Dee Leigh)
I was not making generic statements. Sofia's situation was really down to backwards and barbaric practices.

This was posted from The Student Room's Android App on my GT-S5830

Back your claim up with some evidence relating to this event.

Don't pull random evidence from other incidents...use the information here in this story to back your claim up.

Because if you tell me that it's "always" the case that it's cultural then you are committing the hasty generalization fallacy.

[Dee Leigh]

(Original post by .eXe)
Back your claim up with some evidence relating to this event.

Don't pull random evidence from other incidents...use the information here in this story to back your claim up.

Because if you tell me that it's "always" the case that it's cultural then you are committing the hasty generalization fallacy.

I wasn't pulling random evidence and I am not generalizing. Sofia's situation was down to backwards and barbaric cultural practices from narrow-minded and idiotic parents who chose to abuse her instead of loving her.

Abuse isn't specific to one culture or one family. Anyone of any background can be a victim of abuse. In Sofia's case, it was the barbaric cultural practices that she went through which were abusive.

This was posted from The Student Room's Android App on my GT-S5830