[Metrobeans]

B462 - Northern Irish Flag Bill, Labour

Northern Irish Flag Bill

Preamble:
Currently Northern Ireland has no official flag. This Bill proposes a new flag for Northern Ireland which is as politically neutral as possible.

BE IT ENACTED by The Queen's most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Commons in this present Parliament assembled, in accordance with the provisions of the Parliament Acts 1911 and 1949, and by the authority of the same, as follows:-

1. Flag

(1) The National Flag of Northern Ireland shall be an outline of the borders of Northern Ireland with the land coloured in cream while the background shall be royal blue.

2. Commencement, short title and extent

(1) This Act may be cited as the Northern Irish Flag Act 2012.
(2) This bill shall extend to Northern Ireland; and
(3) Shall come into force within six months following Royal Assent.

Notes - xXedixXx

The proposed Northern Irish flag:


This flag was proposed by the Northern Irish Alliance Party in 2003 and is the flag that I believe is the uncontroversial and neutral out of all of the proposals I've seen.

[Birchington]

Not really bothered about this issue but the flag suggestion would be the least controversial.

[MacDaddi]

Sorry I've gotta go and

That's horrible.

[internetguru]

No flag? Well they have one on football manager.

[Stiff Little Fingers]

I was under the impression the St George's Cross defaced with the red hand of Ulster and a crown was the flag?


Still, I like that design better, the idea of an Ulster hand appearing on a flag is a bit of a minefield...

[obi_adorno_kenobi]

What is it with Labour (or Labourites) and their nation-building? Anthems, flags, what next... official flowers? Well for the sake of ease it's a thistle, a rose, a shamrock and a daffodil. Now, the flag is wholly ugly and somewhat out of keeping with conventions in Europe. Why not just blend the various colours of the North together to create a flag of unity? Green and Orange and Red and Blue ... not hard now is it.

[Lipvig]

Would this not affect the Union Jack, as it is a mixture of the English, Scottish and Northern Irish flag?

[Moleman1996]

No, st georges cross defaced with hand of ulster or nothing. It's by far the most accepted choice in N.Ireland, and are we not betraying the Northern Irish people by discussing this without any apparent thought to what they would want?

We can't be seen to taking a weak stance towards Irish Unionists, and that is exactly what this is.

[xXedixXx]

(Original post by internetguru)
No flag? Well they have one on football manager.

That's their football flag which is the old official flag.

(Original post by Alofleicester)
I was under the impression the St George's Cross defaced with the red hand of Ulster and a crown was the flag?


Still, I like that design better, the idea of an Ulster hand appearing on a flag is a bit of a minefield...

That flag has not been in official use since 1972, Northern Ireland has no flag at the moment.

(Original post by Lipvig)
Would this not affect the Union Jack, as it is a mixture of the English, Scottish and Northern Irish flag?

No, the Union Flag incorporates St Patrick's cross which represents the Island of Ireland.

(Original post by Moleman1996)
No, st georges cross defaced with hand of ulster or nothing. It's by far the most accepted choice in N.Ireland, and are we not betraying the Northern Irish people by discussing this without any apparent thought to what they would want?

We can't be seen to taking a weak stance towards Irish Unionists, and that is exactly what this is.

I think you're wrong actually Moleman and have just totally made that statistic up. Government buildings and a lot of Unionists fly the Union Flag (which isn't a unique flag to the country), some of the Unionists flag the Ulster Banner (the old 1970s official flag) and some of them fly the orange order/lodge flag, Irish Nationalists fly the R.O.I. tricolour and separatists fly a different flag. All of these groups should be able to unite under one flag that is totally uncontroversial.


You need to understand how controversial the old Northern Irish flag is, it is incredibly offensive to Irish Nationalists and caused a lot of problems that's why it was taken down from Government buildings in 1972/3 and was no longer the official flag. The proposed flag is as politically neutral as the flag can possibly be, causing the least amount of problems while still providing the proud nation with a flag which it deserves.

[thunder_chunky]

(Original post by Alofleicester)
I was under the impression the St George's Cross defaced with the red hand of Ulster and a crown was the flag?


Still, I like that design better, the idea of an Ulster hand appearing on a flag is a bit of a minefield...

I thought that too but I guess some don't like it because of the sassenach resemblences.

[JPKC]

Why is Labour sponsoring this? Just let xXedixXx submit this kind of crap and let it be done with. A dreadfully irrelevant bill. It's a bloody flag.

[rockrunride]

The lack of awareness here is startling.

Aye, anyway. Reinstalling the Ulster Banner over NI would be akin to installing the Irish Tricolour.

[xXedixXx]

(Original post by rockrunride)
The lack of awareness here is startling.

Aye, anyway. Reinstalling the Ulster Banner over NI would be akin to installing the Irish Tricolour.

Thanks for your support.

I agree that the lack of awareness is startling.

People who are replying saying things along the lines of: "But I like the look of the current flag better" shows that they don't understand the political significance of the Ulster Banner, nor do they understand that it is not the official flag. Quite worrying.

[toronto353]

(Original post by xXedixXx)
Thanks for your support.

I agree that the lack of awareness is startling.

People who are replying saying things along the lines of: "But I like the look of the current flag better" shows that they don't understand the political significance of the Ulster Banner, nor do they understand that it is not the official flag. Quite worrying.

Have you actually got any statistics (polling numbers etc) which show that this is what the people of Northern Ireland want? If not, then this is just another case of the Westminster government deciding for the people of Northern Ireland. I would prefer that they legislate on this rather than this House. The MHoC imposing a solution to the flag issue on Northern Ireland isn't something that I would encourage.

[xXedixXx]

(Original post by toronto353)
Have you actually got any statistics (polling numbers etc) which show that this is what the people of Northern Ireland want? If not, then this is just another case of the Westminster government deciding for the people of Northern Ireland. I would prefer that they legislate on this rather than this House. The MHoC imposing a solution to the flag issue on Northern Ireland isn't something that I would encourage.

I believe it's part of my job as Shadow Minister for Northern Ireland.

[toronto353]

(Original post by xXedixXx)
I believe it's part of my job as Shadow Minister for Northern Ireland.

That's not really an answer to my first question though is it? What statistics do you have to show that this is what is wanted?

[DynamicSyngery]

It's awful. A flag purposely designed not to represent anything or anyone. It would be better not to have a flag.

[Moleman1996]

(Original post by xXedixXx)
That's their football flag which is the old official flag.



That flag has not been in official use since 1972, Northern Ireland has no flag at the moment.



No, the Union Flag incorporates St Patrick's cross which represents the Island of Ireland.


I think you're wrong actually Moleman and have just totally made that statistic up. Government buildings and a lot of Unionists fly the Union Flag (which isn't a unique flag to the country), some of the Unionists flag the Ulster Banner (the old 1970s official flag) and some of them fly the orange order/lodge flag, Irish Nationalists fly the R.O.I. tricolour and separatists fly a different flag. All of these groups should be able to unite under one flag that is totally uncontroversial.


You need to understand how controversial the old Northern Irish flag is, it is incredibly offensive to Irish Nationalists and caused a lot of problems that's why it was taken down from Government buildings in 1972/3 and was no longer the official flag. The proposed flag is as politically neutral as the flag can possibly be, causing the least amount of problems while still providing the proud nation with a flag which it deserves.

have you actually looked at any statistics? opinion polls etc? As part of your 'new job as shadow minister for northern ireland' surely you should have done? Do we need a Cyprus style flag, which was intended the same, to provide unity and be uncontroversial, and which has ultimately made no difference to the situation whatsoever? What's wrong with the cross of St. Patrick then if you don't want the ulster banner.

[obi_adorno_kenobi]

(Original post by Moleman1996)
What's wrong with the cross of St. Patrick then if you don't want the ulster banner.

It's generally regarded by nationalists as a British invention. The reality is this entire bill is a waste of time. The unionists will fly the Union Flag and the nationalists will fly the Irish tricolour. Trying to fabricate a middle ground and then impose it is a complete waste of time. If Northern Ireland has survived without a "national" flag since the proroguation of the old Parliament of Northern Ireland in 1972 then I'm sure they'll survive now. Why xxxedixxx is intent on imposing patriotic symbols on everyone is beyond me.

[Moleman1996]

(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
It's generally regarded by nationalists as a British invention. The reality is this entire bill is a waste of time. The unionists will fly the Union Flag and the nationalists will fly the Irish tricolour. Trying to fabricate a middle ground and then impose it is a complete waste of time. If Northern Ireland has survived without a "national" flag since the proroguation of the old Parliament of Northern Ireland in 1972 then I'm sure they'll survive now. Why xxxedixxx is intent on imposing patriotic symbols on everyone is beyond me.

I agree with you on that, nationalists aren't gonna fly the flag of a country they don't believe should exist. Its like asking tibetans who are against chinese occupation to voluntarily fly the PRC's flag.