[Hopple]

(Original post by Mister Dead)
what, the bit where you attempt to paint walt, the murderer, meth manufacturer, money launderer, theif, child poisoner etc as the victim because he has cancer. Or the bit where he does it for his family? Remind me how they've actually benefitted, so far.

Hey, you won't think of terminal cancer so lightly if you ever get it. His family are up (or would be, if Skyler hadn't given a ton of it to Ted) over half a million dollars.

(Original post by OmicronPersei8)
Walt chucking the pizza was a couple of seasons back, my point again is that Walt is not the same person. He's demonstrated that he's capable of much more than people expected. And besides she only took the money to erase any chances of the IRS potentially getting to her - and eventually Walt. Just because he has cancer doesn't mean his actions are excusable. The tables have turned and Walt is no longer that poor guy that got cancer and Skyler isn't the 'bitch mom"

Why might the IRS get to her? It's because she was Ted's accountant fiddling the figures. She is the bitch mom, keeping a father and children separate - the only thing she's wrongly got stick for is having to return Walt Jr's car. I'm not saying Walt's a saint, far from it, but providing for his family for when he dies prematurely is as noble a motive as any person can have. Compare that to Skyler's motives, and a lot of it is spite.

[original_username]

(Original post by Mister Dead)
what, the bit where you attempt to paint walt, the murderer, meth manufacturer, money launderer, theif, child poisoner etc as the victim because he has cancer. Or the bit where he does it for his family? Remind me how they've actually benefitted, so far.

All of the blood on Walts hands has been completely necessary.

[Mister Dead]

(Original post by Hopple)
Hey, you won't think of terminal cancer so lightly if you ever get it.

What a ridiculous thing to say. I also wont start murdering peopleand poisoning kids and making meth and etc etc etc

His family are up (or would be, if Skyler hadn't given a ton of it to Ted) over half a million dollars.

But he's destroyed what was a relatively happy, stable home. All he has succeeded in doing is destroying his marriage and putting his family in great danger.

Are people here confusing Walt being a great character with being a great person??? He's a megalomaniac and either he or many of the people around him are going to die - or indeed already have - at his hands.

What possible justification could there be for his actions. They are disgracefully immoral and indefensible on any level.

She is the bitch mom, keeping a father and children separate

If you discovered that your partner was leading a double life and was putting the lives of your family in immense danger purely by being near them then what would you do? She is less of an idiot than Walt in this respect. As a mother is would be completely irresponsible of her to let Walt anywhere near her children. She was doing the right thing and in fact should have gone straight to the DEA in this instance, but she was possibly not to know that as she had been kept in the dark to the full extent of Walt's criminal, murderous behaviour.

Honestly, the extent to which people will blindly defend someone just becuase they like them.

[rainbow drops]

(Original post by original_username)
All of the blood on Walts hands has been completely necessary.

Well, no if he'd taken Gretchen and Elliot's offer, none of it would have happened. I agree with Mister Dead's post; none of it is defensible at all.

[Mister Dead]

(Original post by original_username)
All of the blood on Walts hands has been completely necessary.

necessary in what regard.

I want some chocolate but don't want to pay for it and therefore it's necessary that I steal it?

[original_username]

(Original post by rainbow drops)
Well, no if he'd taken Gretchen and Elliot's offer, none of it would have happened. I agree with Mister Dead's post; none of it is defensible at all.

All of it is defensible in some way. It isn't black and white. Which is why it is potentially the best TV series ever.

[original_username]

(Original post by Mister Dead)
necessary in what regard.

I want some chocolate but don't want to pay for it and therefore it's necessary that I steal it?

He has killed 7 or 8 people I think?
The guy in the cellar was going to kill him. This is when he really started to turn, he was going to let him go but realised in this game it is kill or be killed.

Jesse would have been killed if he didn't mow down and shoot them two dealers.

Gale had to go.

Gus had to go to protect himself and his family, Hector chose to sacrifice himself and who cares about the other guy.

Jane I mentioned in the post you didn't quote.

It isn't as simple as you're making it seem.

[Hopple]

(Original post by Mister Dead)
What a ridiculous thing to say. I also wont start murdering peopleand poisoning kids and making meth and etc etc etc

Glad to hear it, but don't go criticising terminally ill people.

But he's destroyed what was a relatively happy, stable home. All he has succeeded in doing is destroying his marriage and putting his family in great danger.

His marriage was to be destroyed by his death anyway, what's lost there? Seemingly he didn't want to bother with chemo until he was talked into it, so fight he did.

Are people here confusing Walt being a great character with being a great person??? He's a megalomaniac and either he or many of the people around him are going to die - or indeed already have - at his hands.

Well, Gus is dead, which is one in the plus column. Hank got shot doing what he'd generally be doing anyway, and the rest of his family are fine, even Jesse.

What possible justification could there be for his actions. They are disgracefully immoral and indefensible on any level.

He's doing what he needs to do to provide for his family when he's dead.

If you discovered that your partner was leading a double life and was putting the lives of your family in immense danger purely by being near them then what would you do? She is less of an idiot than Walt in this respect. As a mother is would be completely irresponsible of her to let Walt anywhere near her children. She was doing the right thing and in fact should have gone straight to the DEA in this instance, but she was possibly not to know that as she had been kept in the dark to the full extent of Walt's criminal, murderous behaviour.

She was doing the right thing, yet she also should have gone to the DEA? Then she wasn't doing the right thing. And as I said before, stopping Walt seeing his children wouldn't help them if she's keeping them at Walt's known address. If she disappears with them then that's fair enough, else it's just spite.

Honestly, the extent to which people will blindly defend someone just becuase they like them.

Could say the same about you and Skyler

[Mister Dead]

(Original post by original_username)
All of it is defensible in some way. It isn't black and white. Which is why it is potentially the best TV series ever.

I'd like to see you try.

Initially it appeared to be a bit of a moral maze - the initial premiss I mean. It only took a couple of seasons though before this became entirely about Walt's rapid ascent to megalamaniac, drug kingpin status. And then about watching the veneer of control over a series of individual scenarios slip into desperate, crackpot plans that see him stumbling through chaos as the ripples of causality spread wider and wider.

It's really pretty black and white. Walt has lost it and is a danger to his family. They, ironically, would be safer if he was dead.

[Mister Dead]

(Original post by Hopple)
Glad to hear it, but don't go criticising terminally ill people.

is this a joke? why can't you criticise a terminally ill person?

His marriage was to be destroyed by his death anyway, what's lost there? Seemingly he didn't want to bother with chemo until he was talked into it, so fight he did.

right, so we established he's not dead. so probably his marriage wouldn't have been destroyed by his death.

He's doing what he needs to do to provide for his family when he's dead

No he's not. He's trying to be the king.

I won.

I forgive you.

It's over when I say it's over.

I am the one who knocks.

This hasn't been about his family for ages. Besides that, if I deliberately poisoned your child as part of an elaborate plan to become drug kingpin, would you excuse it on the grounds I had cancer??? Or if your child was shot in the head by rival drug gangs as a results of my involvement, would you be sympathetic. eh?????

She was doing the right thing, yet she also should have gone to the DEA? Then she wasn't doing the right thing.

She has since made bad decisions. as i said earlier, she is now going down walts path.

And as I said before, stopping Walt seeing his children wouldn't help them if she's keeping them at Walt's known address. If she disappears with them then that's fair enough, else it's just spite.

You would trust your children with Walter White?

[Hopple]

(Original post by Mister Dead)
is this a joke? why can't you criticise a terminally ill person?

You're not allowing him any slack - he's got terminal cancer.

right, so we established he's not dead. so probably his marriage wouldn't have been destroyed by his death.

He's going to die young because of his cancer, their marriage doesn't have a future anyway so he might as well sacrifice it to secure something that does have a chance - his children's futures.

No he's not. He's trying to be the king.

I won.

I forgive you.

It's over when I say it's over.

I am the one who knocks.

It's an effective way of accumulating cash, as the $600k would prove if Skyler hadn't given it away.

This hasn't been about his family for ages. Besides that, if I deliberately poisoned your child as part of an elaborate plan to become drug kingpin, would you excuse it on the grounds I had cancer??? Or if your child was shot in the head by rival drug gangs as a results of my involvement, would you be sympathetic. eh?????

Oh yeah, bring my children into it. Objectively, it's only normal to want to provide for your family. Subjectively, some go too far.

She has since made bad decisions. as i said earlier, she is now going down walts path.

She's acted out of spite against him, that's what makes her so bad. As for Walt, it's to get money for his family - okay there's some power tripping but remember he was going to give up when he got the diagnosis, and even kill himself when he thought the cops had come for him in the desert.

You would trust your children with Walter White?

I would trust Walter White with Walter White's children. He's not exactly going to kill them, wtf? If Skyler were really trying to protect her children from nutters after her husband, she'd have hidden them away from anywhere Walt was connected to, not Walt's home address which is the stupidest place to 'hide' them.

[Mister Dead]

(Original post by Hopple)
You're not allowing him any slack - he's got terminal cancer.

No. Do I really need to make a list of everything he's done and then ask you again.

Jesus, honestly.

He's going to die young because of his cancer, their marriage doesn't have a future anyway so he might as well sacrifice it to secure something that does have a chance - his children's futures.

Yes, that would make sense if their future looked safer. And it would make sense if he also hadn't dragged Skyler into the whole mess, foolishly allowing her to become complicit in his whole insane power trip, meaning that when he is caught, she may be caught. And guess what - Skyler gets banged up, kids have no mom. And guess what, Hank's also caught up in this mess now thanks to accepting drug money for treatment. He may be innocent, but you can be sure that would ruin his families life for a year or two while that goes through the courts. That's if they survive - you might not blame Walt, but he is also inextricably linked to the incident that left hank in a wheelchair.

All in all not looking good value for a few hundred thousand$

It's an effective way of accumulating cash, as the $600k would prove if Skyler hadn't given it away.

Oh yeah, bring my children into it. Objectively, it's only normal to want to provide for your family. Subjectively, some go too far.

are you completely amoral, or are you playing devil's advocate?

She's acted out of spite against him, that's what makes her so bad.

there is NO 'so bad' with Skyler. She might be annoying, she may have done a few silly things, and she may be breaking bad now (eventually), but you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think that until S4 she was anything other than a victim of her husbands self delusion and grandiosity

I would trust Walter White with Walter White's children. He's not exactly going to kill them, wtf? If Skyler were really trying to protect her children from nutters after her husband, she'd have hidden them away from anywhere Walt was connected to, not Walt's home address which is the stupidest place to 'hide' them.

I don't know why i'm arguing this anymore. If you are watching this program and see - in your words - a mother being spiteful with regard to access to children as in some way equal to murder, poisoning, making and selling meth, making your family party to drug money and activity etc etc as in some way equal???

WTF

[Hopple]

(Original post by Mister Dead)
No. Do I really need to make a list of everything he's done and then ask you again.

Jesus, honestly.

It doesn't wholly excuse his actions, but you're acting as if he should continue on with his life as normal.

Yes, that would make sense if their future looked safer. And it would make sense if he also hadn't dragged Skyler into the whole mess, foolishly allowing her to become complicit in his whole insane power trip, meaning that when he is caught, she may be caught. And guess what - Skyler gets banged up, kids have no mom. And guess what, Hank's also caught up in this mess now thanks to accepting drug money for treatment. He may be innocent, but you can be sure that would ruin his families life for a year or two while that goes through the courts. That's if they survive - you might not blame Walt, but he is also inextricably linked to the incident that left hank in a wheelchair.

All in all not looking good value for a few hundred thousand$

Their future does look safer, the USA's pretty crap when it comes to poor people. He didn't drag Skyler into it, he had no choice but to admit to her what was going on, and wasn't it her idea to start laundering the money?

Hank could have ended up in a wheelchair at any time, why wouldn't a druglord want to bump off a DEA agent on his trail?

are you completely amoral, or are you playing devil's advocate?

No.

there is NO 'so bad' with Skyler. She might be annoying, she may have done a few silly things, and she may be breaking bad now (eventually), but you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think that until S4 she was anything other than a victim of her husbands self delusion and grandiosity

I don't know why i'm arguing this anymore. If you are watching this program and see - in your words - a mother being spiteful with regard to access to children as in some way equal to murder, poisoning, making and selling meth, making your family party to drug money and activity etc etc as in some way equal???

WTF

I don't see them as equal. I do see the difference in intent though, and Skyler's intent has no saving grace.

[Mister Dead]

I reckon you'd be fairly hacked off if you were in her shoes.

And you actually believe their furture looks safer than before when they were surrounded by a supportive extended family and friends that were kind enough to offer financial assistance. Rather than being tracked by your now crippled DEA brother and married to a murdering, child abusing, drug kingpin.

Weird safe.

[Jordan_1]

(Original post by original_username)
All of the blood on Walts hands has been completely necessary.

Didn't mean to neg rep you, sorry. I agree, most of his murders were purely for survival. Anyone who can't see that is an idiot.

[Mister Dead]

(Original post by Jordan_1)
Didn't mean to neg rep you, sorry. I agree, most of his murders were purely for survival. Anyone who can't see that is an idiot.

yes, survival as a murderous, drug kingpin. which is not necessary.

[Jordan_1]

(Original post by Mister Dead)
yes, survival as a murderous, drug kingpin. which is not necessary.

It was after he already started... But yes, I'm sure if he decided not to go along the path of the drug kingpin the tv show would still be just as good

[Mister Dead]

(Original post by Jordan_1)
It was after he already started... But yes, I'm sure if he decided not to go along the path of the drug kingpin the tv show would still be just as good

we're not talking about what makes the show 'good'. and no, it wasn't 'necessary', it was all brought about by decisions he makes - it's a choice. he could have withdrawn from this series of indefensible actions on many occassions along the way.

[original_username]

(Original post by Jordan_1)
Didn't mean to neg rep you, sorry. I agree, most of his murders were purely for survival. Anyone who can't see that is an idiot.

lol don't worry your rep is worthless anyway

I'm bored of the debate now. The very fact that the writer says something happens in this season which makes us lose all sympathy for Walt means its been intentionally written so far for us to still feel for him. In my opinion thats because all his decisions have been necessary for the greater good.

[OmicronPersei8]

(Original post by Hopple)
Hey, you won't think of terminal cancer so lightly if you ever get it. His family are up (or would be, if Skyler hadn't given a ton of it to Ted) over half a million dollars.



Why might the IRS get to her? It's because she was Ted's accountant fiddling the figures. She is the bitch mom, keeping a father and children separate - the only thing she's wrongly got stick for is having to return Walt Jr's car. I'm not saying Walt's a saint, far from it, but providing for his family for when he dies prematurely is as noble a motive as any person can have. Compare that to Skyler's motives, and a lot of it is spite.

But he no longer cares about providing for his family. It's all about power and "winning". The cancer stopped being a big issue as soon as he got the news it was in remission. All Walt cares about is the power and proving he is not the person to f*** with. Him having cancer doesn't excuse him from being this 'Heisenberg' character. He is no longer the good guy!

And with the IRS storyline (if you had paid any attention to it) Skyler & Walt had just bought the car wash and were using that to filter through Walt's "gambling" money. If the IRS had found out she was messing with Ted's books (which he had been doing long before she got there) then they may turn their attention to her new business. Ultimately exposing herself and Walt. Kids would have no family. Hank would probably get roped in too since the drug money is being used to pay for his medical bills. There is a huge ripple affect if Walt gets caught and she's doing whatever she can to prevent that from happening.

Either way, Walt is going to do something completely inexcusable soon so I suspect the Walt love will disappear soon. I think Cranston does an excellent job of playing him and Walt is fascinating but he's definitely no longer the good guy.