[Cmmah]

There's a debating competition coming up, and I have to argue that there has never been a 'just' war (they haven't specified whether it's 'just' in the Christian sense or 'just' as in justified). The angle that I'm going to give my argument at is that it's only a just war if both sides are fighting for just causes, as it takes two sides to be involved in a war.
So, in your opinion, have there been any wars in which both sides were justified in fighting the war?

[Arbolus]

How just a war is depends on the viewpoint of the people deciding it. The Soviets were justified in fighting in World War 2, as they were defending their country against a foreign aggressor, and yet Germany thought it was justified in attacking them because Communism was perceived to be a threat to the stability of civilization. These days it's clear that Germany was in the wrong, but only because we'd also been attacked and had little choice but to fight alongside the Soviets. If it weren't for that,, and other events such as the Holocaust, I think most people both then and now would have preferred to side with Germany.

[Patriot Rich]

(Original post by Cmmah)
The angle that I'm going to give my argument at is that it's only a just war if both sides are fighting for just causes, as it takes two sides to be involved in a war.

Would you describe Britain's war with Nazi Germany as just? There was nothing just about Hitler invading Poland, the areas that were taken from the German Empire following Versailles had almost entirely ethnic Polish majorities (bar Danzig which was a free state). We had justice on our side, finally standing up for the weak against the strong, as far as wars go it's about as just as it gets in my view.

To be honest I don't really see the point of your argument. There is nothing more just than standing up against a bully.

[MillyPixie]

The reason there is a war is because both sides believes their cause to be "just"...

[Cmmah]

(Original post by Patriot Rich)
Would you describe Britain's war with Nazi Germany as just? There was nothing just about Hitler invading Poland, the areas that were taken from the German Empire following Versailles had almost entirely ethnic Polish majorities (bar Danzig which was a free state). We had justice on our side, finally standing up for the weak against the strong, as far as wars go it's about as just as it gets in my view.

To be honest I don't really see the point of your argument. There is nothing more just than standing up against a bully.

Yes, the point of my argument is that although one side may be fighting for a just cause, it takes two sides to make a war.
I'll put it like this - there's two people recounting a story, in turns. One's telling the truth and one is lying. You end up with a half-true story. If you adapt that to a war situation, you could say that if only one side is fighting for a just cause, you end up with a half-just war.

If not, then how would suggest I approach the argument?

[musabjilani]

(Original post by Cmmah)
There's a debating competition coming up, and I have to argue that there has never been a 'just' war (they haven't specified whether it's 'just' in the Christian sense or 'just' as in justified). The angle that I'm going to give my argument at is that it's only a just war if both sides are fighting for just causes, as it takes two sides to be involved in a war.
So, in your opinion, have there been any wars in which both sides were justified in fighting the war?

I think that most of the time each side thinks it's fighting for a just cause, however warped their sense of what is or isn't just might be. Whether we see their cause as just depends on just that -- whether *we* see it as just.

[llys]

Well, is it intolerant to be intolerant of intolerance?
Analogously, is it unjust to go to war against someone who is unjust?

(Original post by Patriot Rich)
Would you describe Britain's war with Nazi Germany as just? There was nothing just about Hitler invading Poland, the areas that were taken from the German Empire following Versailles had almost entirely ethnic Polish majorities (bar Danzig which was a free state). We had justice on our side, finally standing up for the weak against the strong, as far as wars go it's about as just as it gets in my view.

That's all well and good ("we" eh? good for you). For the sake of argument though, one could take the viewpoint that perhaps the Allies could just have assassinated Hitler instead. Perhaps then a lot of the war could have been avoided altogether. With a lot fewer war dead to go around etc.

------------

Personally I think that ultimately, men go to war because they love the idea of war. I don't have a very high opinion of people, as you can probably tell.

[anarchism101]

(Original post by Patriot Rich)
Would you describe Britain's war with Nazi Germany as just? There was nothing just about Hitler invading Poland, the areas that were taken from the German Empire following Versailles had almost entirely ethnic Polish majorities (bar Danzig which was a free state). We had justice on our side, finally standing up for the weak against the strong, as far as wars go it's about as just as it gets in my view.

To be honest I don't really see the point of your argument. There is nothing more just than standing up against a bully.

We weren't 'standing up for the weak against the strong' at all. We were standing up for the strong (ourselves) against the other strong (the Nazis), and simply using Poland as an excuse.

I'm not saying Britain shouldn't have fought the Nazis, but to try and paint them therefore as 'good guys' is simply wrong. We were trying to stop German imperialism, but not because we thought imperialism was wrong (we had the largest empire in the world, remember), but because we were worried Hitler would threaten the British Empire.

[thecrimsonidol]

(Original post by MillyPixie)
The reason there is a war is because both sides believes their cause to be "just"...

This, basically.

[Patriot Rich]

(Original post by anarchism101)
We weren't 'standing up for the weak against the strong' at all. We were standing up for the strong (ourselves) against the other strong (the Nazis), and simply using Poland as an excuse.

I'm not saying Britain shouldn't have fought the Nazis, but to try and paint them therefore as 'good guys' is simply wrong. We were trying to stop German imperialism, but not because we thought imperialism was wrong (we had the largest empire in the world, remember), but because we were worried Hitler would threaten the British Empire.

Hitler didn't initially view us as an enemy. Goebbels especially tried to court the British empire seeing it as a natural ally, being 'Germanic'. There was obviously a bit of bitterness over what happened in the Second World War, but that was mostly encouraged by France who had suffered more, but this could have been worked around. If we really wanted to preserve the Empire we could have allied of Hitler. Thankfully we had the good sense to not trust him and see him for the power mad dictator he was.

[creak]

(Original post by Patriot Rich)
Hitler didn't initially view us as an enemy. Goebbels especially tried to court the British empire seeing it as a natural ally, being 'Germanic'. There was obviously a bit of bitterness over what happened in the Second World War, but that was mostly encouraged by France who had suffered more, but this could have been worked around. If we really wanted to preserve the Empire we could have allied of Hitler. Thankfully we had the good sense to not trust him and see him for the power mad dictator he was.

The British and French declaration of war against Nazi Germany was about preventing the power-balance in Europe (and associated colonies) from slipping out of their control. A resurgent Germany was a threat to Anglo-French interests, and the invasion of Poland was simply the trigger for intervention. Returning to the original question, this probably doesn't then qualify it as a 'just' cause- because it's not the selfless, anti-imperialist act you're portraying it to be.

[WillowSummers]

The crusades, no?

[xmarilynx]

(Original post by Cmmah)
There's a debating competition coming up, and I have to argue that there has never been a 'just' war (they haven't specified whether it's 'just' in the Christian sense or 'just' as in justified). The angle that I'm going to give my argument at is that it's only a just war if both sides are fighting for just causes, as it takes two sides to be involved in a war.
So, in your opinion, have there been any wars in which both sides were justified in fighting the war?

That's an originally take on it, I did a piece of coursework on the same subject recently and didn't think about both sides needing a just cause.

How about the Cold War? Both sides thought their ideology was superior and interpreted the other as a threat. It could nearly have been a Hot War too (Cuban Missile Crisis).

[Alix23]

Religious wars generally.

I guess you could say WW1, the German's fought because they wanted to get back what they thought was rightfully theirs and becuase they felt they were being left behind by nations like Britain. The others sides were defending or preventing a German dominated Europe.

[Alix23]

(Original post by Cmmah)
There's a debating competition coming up, and I have to argue that there has never been a 'just' war (they haven't specified whether it's 'just' in the Christian sense or 'just' as in justified). The angle that I'm going to give my argument at is that it's only a just war if both sides are fighting for just causes, as it takes two sides to be involved in a war.
So, in your opinion, have there been any wars in which both sides were justified in fighting the war?

I'm slightly confused, what's the actual motion and which side/position are you in?

[TheKingoftheJews]

(Original post by Patriot Rich)
Would you describe Britain's war with Nazi Germany as just? There was nothing just about Hitler invading Poland, the areas that were taken from the German Empire following Versailles had almost entirely ethnic Polish majorities (bar Danzig which was a free state). We had justice on our side, finally standing up for the weak against the strong, as far as wars go it's about as just as it gets in my view.

To be honest I don't really see the point of your argument. There is nothing more just than standing up against a bully.

I found you

[Patriot Rich]

(Original post by creak)
The British and French declaration of war against Nazi Germany was about preventing the power-balance in Europe (and associated colonies) from slipping out of their control. A resurgent Germany was a threat to Anglo-French interests, and the invasion of Poland was simply the trigger for intervention. Returning to the original question, this probably doesn't then qualify it as a 'just' cause- because it's not the selfless, anti-imperialist act you're portraying it to be.

I disagree. A resurgent Germany was a threat to French interests, Hitler was always going to have his eyes on Alsace Lorraine. The British Empire could have stayed neutral, especially since it's not part of mainland Europe.

The question is whether protecting France's interests is equal to protecting Britain's interests given that they were allies.

[Cannotbelieveit]

Hitler's invasion of Poland was definitely not just, and I'm trying to take a non-bias viewpoint on it.

The thing is, no one in the whole world is completely neutral, and it is human nature to favour one side over another. Therefore there are no wars in which both sides are 'just'.

[Cmmah]

(Original post by Alix23)
I'm slightly confused, what's the actual motion and which side/position are you in?

There is no such thing as a just war and I'm arguing for it.

[Alix23]

(Original post by Cmmah)
There is no such thing as a just war and I'm arguing for it.

I think saying that there couldn't be a just war because the two sides would both have to be fighting for a just cause would work then.
The only thing that won't fit so well with this are the less conventional wars, such as the 'war on terror' where you could say only one side is fighting a war, and they are doing it for a just cause.
That's a really tough debate to prepare for, particularly if you aren't defining, glad I haven't had it!