Private Schools dominating establishment??
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Private Schools dominating establishment??Why oh why, are private schools dominating still, in the 21st century?? Maybe it's time to reopen grammar schools again to compete??
SOURCE; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B99O_J-gFsI&feature=plcp -
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Re: Private Schools dominating establishment??Private schools do disproportionately well in getting students in to top universities for several reasons:
1) They are able to attract better teachers, by offering better salaries
2) Smaller class sizes and thus more teacher-pupil contact time
3) Careers departments get very good at working out what the universities want
4) Most are academically selective.
I certainly chose one because it offered, and still offers, the best education in my area. Anyway, the issue shouldn't be one of 'competing' because that presupposes that private schools are some kind of enemy. The priority should be to provide the best education for people. I don't know whether new grammar schools are the panacaea that the right-wing press sometimes proclaims them as. Equally, the 'Assisted Places' scheme has attractive features too, but clear drawbacks.
So yes, in short, a large part of the reason why private schools do well is because the standard of education is generally higher. (Just for the record, mine was a former grammar school that went private when threatened with closure in the 1970s). You might be right that new grammar schools would offer a credible alternative to many bright children. We can't forget the others, though, who inevitably would not get into these schools. -
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Re: Private Schools dominating establishment??The OP wasn't saying we should write off people who didn't get in to grammar schools. They were saying that grammar schools would do something to address the critical situation we find ourselves in, with the absolute majority of Oxbridge students (well, my college anyway) coming from independent schools. People from private schools and grammar schools who have had the privilege of selective education rarely appreciate how urgent the situation is...(Original post by Veni Vidi Fugi)
Private schools do disproportionately well in getting students in to top universities for several reasons:
1) They are able to attract better teachers, by offering better salaries
2) Smaller class sizes and thus more teacher-pupil contact time
3) Careers departments get very good at working out what the universities want
4) Most are academically selective.
I certainly chose one because it offered, and still offers, the best education in my area. Anyway, the issue shouldn't be one of 'competing' because that presupposes that private schools are some kind of enemy. The priority should be to provide the best education for people. I don't know whether new grammar schools are the panacaea that the right-wing press sometimes proclaims them as. Equally, the 'Assisted Places' scheme has attractive features too, but clear drawbacks.
So yes, in short, a large part of the reason why private schools do well is because the standard of education is generally higher. (Just for the record, mine was a former grammar school that went private when threatened with closure in the 1970s). You might be right that new grammar schools would offer a credible alternative to many bright children. We can't forget the others, though, who inevitably would not get into these schools. -
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Re: Private Schools dominating establishment??Yeah, fair enough. I do support reintroducing more grammar schools, just with the caveats that I mentioned above.(Original post by iflyaway)
The OP wasn't saying we should write off people who didn't get in to grammar schools. They were saying that grammar schools would do something to address the critical situation we find ourselves in, with the absolute majority of Oxbridge students (well, my college anyway) coming from independent schools. People from private schools and grammar schools who have had the privilege of selective education rarely appreciate how urgent the situation is... -
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Re: Private Schools dominating establishment??I would also add, now that I think about it, that of the 40%ish (my estimate) who come from state schools in my college, a disproportionately high number do in fact come from grammar schools - maybe one in two. Considering there are only a couple of hundred in the country, and thousands of comprehensives, from personal experience I'd say the OP is bang on the money. Granted, this is all anecdotal, but I can't see how my college would be exceptional, and other Oxbridge colleges do much better; we have a dedicated access officer and sympathetic tutors, but if people aren't pushed at school there's only so much Oxbridge can do.(Original post by Veni Vidi Fugi)
Yeah, fair enough. I do support reintroducing more grammar schools, just with the caveats that I mentioned above. -
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Re: Private Schools dominating establishment??I think what grammar schools are really good at is providing good teaching for those who want to learn. Those kind of people are found via testing at the eleven-plus. State schools sometimes spend too much time catering for the common denominator (although of course we can't leave people behind) without attending to the educational needs of the brightest.(Original post by iflyaway)
I would also add, now that I think about it, that of the 40%ish (my estimate) who come from state schools in my college, a disproportionately high number do in fact come from grammar schools - maybe one in two. Considering there are only a couple of hundred in the country, and thousands of comprehensives, from personal experience I'd say the OP is bang on the money. Granted, this is all anecdotal, but I can't see how my college would be exceptional, and other Oxbridge colleges do much better; we have a dedicated access officer and sympathetic tutors, but if people aren't pushed at school there's only so much Oxbridge can do. -
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Re: Private Schools dominating establishment??No need to estimate it or rely on anecdotal evidence. The stats by college are published here:(Original post by iflyaway)
I would also add, now that I think about it, that of the 40%ish (my estimate) who come from state schools in my college, a disproportionately high number do in fact come from grammar schools - maybe one in two. Considering there are only a couple of hundred in the country, and thousands of comprehensives, from personal experience I'd say the OP is bang on the money. Granted, this is all anecdotal, but I can't see how my college would be exceptional, and other Oxbridge colleges do much better; we have a dedicated access officer and sympathetic tutors, but if people aren't pushed at school there's only so much Oxbridge can do.
http://www.ox.ac.uk/about_the_univer...nd_school_type
No college is anywhere near as low as 40%, but there are wide variances. Mansfield has been over well over 80% for the past two years.
Edit - note that the percentages for 'applications' and 'acceptances' address somewhat different aspects of this debate.Last edited by shoshin; 03-07-2012 at 20:21. Reason: clarification -
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Re: Private Schools dominating establishment??Having competitive public grammar schools which make it purposely difficult for students to gain admission would help close the gap.(Original post by Nice.Guy)
Grammar schools are state funded. State does not have much funds.
I agree we need more decent grammar schools, but in the meantime, those who can afford private education will naturally choose that over state schooling?
Surely if all the students in the classroom are motivated and intelligent it makes it easier for the teacher to push the learning to a higher level.
As opposed to being stuck in a room full of unmotivated buffoons who 'only took chemistry because it was fun at GCSE'. -
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Re: Private Schools dominating establishment??Sorry, why are you aiming this comment at me? I completely agree with your point?(Original post by G56)
Having competitive public grammar schools which make it purposely difficult for students to gain admission would help close the gap.
Surely if all the students in the classroom are motivated and intelligent it makes it easier for the teacher to push the learning to a higher level.
As opposed to being stuck in a room full of unmotivated buffoons who 'only took chemistry because it was fun at GCSE'.
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Re: Private Schools dominating establishment??It's all well and good talking about how grammar schools would provide a more even playing field, but the truth is that there just isn't the money to introduce new ones. In the meantime, I do think that introducing ability based streams in comprehensive schools would be the best option as in my experience, it meant that classes went at a pace suited to the majority rather than the slowest person present, as often happens in mixed ability classes. This was by no means perfect as there was a general feeling of neglect in lower sets, but managed correctly, this system could encourage everyone to reach their potential.
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Re: Private Schools dominating establishment??I don't think that is possible, in public schools you always have a portion of pupils who just don't care about eduction, why should the system reduce its efficiency to cater for such students?(Original post by confused dot com)
It's all well and good talking about how grammar schools would provide a more even playing field, but the truth is that there just isn't the money to introduce new ones. In the meantime, I do think that introducing ability based streams in comprehensive schools would be the best option as in my experience, it meant that classes went at a pace suited to the majority rather than the slowest person present, as often happens in mixed ability classes. This was by no means perfect as there was a general feeling of neglect in lower sets, but managed correctly, this system could encourage everyone to reach their potential.
Especially post 16 education where you are legally old enough to leave the education system I think teachers should start getting tougher and pulling a pace that requires actual effort to keep up with. -
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Re: Private Schools dominating establishment??Well that's always going to be the case and these people will never fully reach their potential if they simply aren't interested in education. For the rest however, classes tailored to the ability level of those in them are bound to improve attainment if done effectively. I do agree with your point on post 16 education though as people are given waaay too many chances in the current system of retakes, when in reality there are some who should just be asked to consider an alternative whether that's a different course or a more vocational route.(Original post by G56)
I don't think that is possible, in public schools you always have a portion of pupils who just don't care about eduction, why should the system reduce its efficiency to cater for such students?
Especially post 16 education where you are legally old enough to leave the education system I think teachers should start getting tougher and pulling a pace that requires actual effort to keep up with. -
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Re: Private Schools dominating establishment??I used to go to a private school, yes it was a school above average but then i got an offer to go to a grammar school. After spending only a year at grammar school my grades have risen significantly higher. Public schools are not doing enough for students to reach the absolute top level and compete with grammar schools and private schools. They always seem to be the lower class but the thing is comprehensive schools students don't really seem to care about education and succeeding.
Last edited by ergo30; 24-07-2012 at 14:54.
