[fortransexual]

I'm not a pro at all - despite the lame username

As a relative newbie I was wondering what kind of experience you(really as in individuals, rather than 'one') would have to have in a language before you would consider calling yourself something like beginner, intermediate, advanced, expert etc? Are there any milestones that mark these groups or is it purely subjective.

I have the same issue with maths... like.. I know I'm good - I know, I know I can do a lot of stuff the average person can't do and A lot of stuff at uni well beyond A level further maths etc so that feels good... but then in the grand scheme of maths that's absolutely nothing really.... so I don't know where I stand.

Any thoughts on the programming? (the maths was more just pondering)

[imgoodatpokemon]

Well, I programmed from scratch a fully-functioning website with my own forum-software I built that includes polls, ranked tips, user-reviews, etc and I still class myself as a beginner because there is just so much stuff that you /don't/ know it's almost impossible to learn everything.

If you want to be a serious expert at it you have to be patient and give it a ton of time. Download Wamp and just go crazy experimenting and building things (if you're into the web-coding side. Games-wise I have zero idea).

I mostly stopped because it just bored me on end eventually the amount of work that has to go in to a website to keep it functioning and fresh.

[fortransexual]

(Original post by imgoodatpokemon)
Well, I programmed from scratch a fully-functioning website with my own forum-software I built that includes polls, ranked tips, user-reviews, etc and I still class myself as a beginner because there is just so much stuff that you /don't/ know it's almost impossible to learn everything.

If you want to be a serious expert at it you have to be patient and give it a ton of time. Download Wamp and just go crazy experimenting and building things (if you're into the web-coding side. Games-wise I have zero idea).

I mostly stopped because it just bored me on end eventually the amount of work that has to go in to a website to keep it functioning and fresh.

thanks for the reply - you seem to have the same angle as me though because you clearly have some ability at it but want to call yourself a beginner because of the size of the total possible ability, so you're lumped in with people who have got as far as 'hello world!'

I'm actually into programming for scientific computing for data analysis and modelling so nothing so appealing

[miser]

I always tend to be conservative in judging my own abilities because it is always a difficult matter to judge oneself in the areas you don't know. It's also the case that the more you know about a subject, the more you also become aware of what you don't know. Having said that, I think that a person can generally speaking make estimations as to whether they would know how to make some application or another.

Myself, I've been programming for a while now (7 years) and on the languages I'm best at I'd consider myself to be intermediate to advanced in them. It is a fairly subjective scale; there are no points at which a person can say "now I'm intermediate". I would say that an advanced user of a language would be a person who is familiar with almost all of its functions such that he could create most types of application (that is, not specialist ones) without much difficulty. An intermediate user is familiar with most functions of a language but has not the experience to program most types of applications without encountering new problems that could have been reasonably avoided with a greater knowledge of the language. A beginner user would be familiar with some functions of a language, but would have relative difficulty with programming most types of applications and regularly encounter problems which could have been reasonably avoided with a greater knowledge of the language. That would be my attempt at a rough classification of the three tiers. I'd also say that there is a large difference between advanced users; some truly know their language to a masterful degree, including a strong knowledge of the inner-workings of their language, enough to write books on the subject.

I think that programming in the long term is difficult with a goal-oriented approach (e.g. a goal to 'become intermediate'). If you enjoy the process of learning new things, creating new software and solving new problems, then you will stick with it naturally. If you can find projects that interest you, that keep you up at night, you will improve faster than you imagined.

[mmmpie]

I would say that the levels are similar to what you might say for English, with intermediate being roughly equivalent to fluent. If you're fluent in English you can express any idea, possibly clumsily and possibly with the aid of a dictionary - if you're at intermediate level with a programming language you should be able to express any programming idea, although not necessarily in the best way and possibly with the aid of a reference manual. But being fluent in English isn't the same as being able to write poetry or a good novel; being at an advanced level both for English and for programming is where you start to have a distinctive style, you can think ahead to different ways of expressing something and choose which one is best, that sort of thing.

[Arekkusu]

I'm not a programmer - though would like to learn it. I would guess programming is somewhat the same as an art, where you become an artist, photographer, writer, by self-definition and self-confidence.

I think the problem is that once you've learned all the actual nuts and bolts of a language and the underlying logic it becomes about creativity: either your own personal creativity or your creativity in problem-solving for a client. There's no point doing programming if there's no particular program in mind you want to get out of it and in that sense it is a bit like the difference between the Chinese room and the actual speaker of Chinese.

And that motivation to create links in almost inextricably with your ability to see gaps in the market, to do something novel, or at least to improve on the performance of an existing program.