[Stiff Little Fingers]

(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
What exactly was the job we started 11 years ago? As I seem to recall, the invasion of Afghanistan happened because America felt the need for vengence after 11 September 2001. Any notion of installing democracy and other motivations are, as the fantasy writers would say, retconned into the narrative.

The original invasion was borne out of a desire for vengeance by the Americans, and the installation of democracy was then put out to justify it's continuation, I'll admit.

However, given the vengeance has been achieved (death of Bin Laden), the work the soldiers are now doing is (theoretically) to stabilise the country and install democracy.

[internetguru]

(Original post by toronto353)
If we leave Afghanistan a safe democracy, then their deaths weren't entirely in vain. For a lot of the time we weren't training them. The aim was to take down the Taliban so it hasn't been 11 years. I really can't believe you're that callous about their deaths.

Continuing a war just to honour dead people is illogical and I find it rather dangerous that people who are swayed by such arguments are in positions of power. Afghanistan is not going to be a safe democracy they think we are invaders. There are reports that a number of Afghans have never ever heard of 9/11 they just see us accidentally drone killing civilians then join the Taliban to fight us. What is your plan to win this war? Just sit there and hope it is suddenly magically won?

[obi_adorno_kenobi]

(Original post by Alofleicester)
The original invasion was borne out of a desire for vengeance by the Americans, and the installation of democracy was then put out to justify it's continuation, I'll admit.

However, given the vengeance has been achieved (death of Bin Laden), the work the soldiers are now doing is to stabilise the country and install democracy.

You cannot stabilise a country that is, itself, a fabrication of the Great Game. Democracy cannot be imposed from above and maintained by money from afar. It has to be a groundswell of popular support. Kharzai is a dodgy mofo and we support warlords across the country to prop up the validity of liberal interventionism.

[Morgsie]

On the issue: my understanding combat operations will end in 2014 IRL and attention is on a supportive training role.

[tufc]

(Original post by internetguru)
The US are pulling out in 2 years what are we going to do in the next 2 years that we haven't been doing for the last 11?

Finish the job. One of my commitments to UKIP's election manifesto was the withdrawal of all troops by December 31st 2014. One to stick to, but I won't be forced into withdrawing earlier than that.

[internetguru]

(Original post by tufc)
Finish the job. One of my commitments to UKIP's election manifesto was the withdrawal of all troops by December 31st 2014. One to stick to, but I won't be forced into withdrawing earlier than that.

So if the job isn't finished by then?

[tufc]

(Original post by internetguru)
So if the job isn't finished by then?

We pull out.

[internetguru]

(Original post by tufc)
We pull out.

I am confused why not just pull out now then because it is highly unlikely it will be complete by 2014.

[cl_steele]

we should never have gone in, in the first place. aye.

[tufc]

(Original post by internetguru)
I am confused why not just pull out now then because it is highly unlikely it will be complete by 2014.

No, but the situation will be substantially better. It's important that we keep training Afghan police/soldiers, so that the day we leave the Taliban don't move back in.

[internetguru]

(Original post by tufc)
No, but the situation will be substantially better. It's important that we keep training Afghan police/soldiers, so that the day we leave the Taliban don't move back in.

Look it isn't going to improve in 2 years time. Over the last 2 years the situation has gotten worst not better who is to say it won't get even worst in the next 2?

[Birchington]

I do agree that the Afghan war has not been worth the massive casualties of both civilians and military personnel, and that the Taliban no longer pose a threat. I also firmly believe that our presence in the region has been an excellent recruiting tool for Al Qaeda militants. Nonetheless, we are committed to a withdrawal timetable and we need to ensure that the training of Afghan soldiers and police personnel is completed to a good standard, in order to ensure some stability for the Afghan people after we leave.

[xXedixXx]

Nay, withdrawing immediately is a very very foolish idea.

[Rhadamanthus]

(Original post by Birchington)
I do agree that the Afghan war has not been worth the massive casualties of both civilians and military personnel, and that the Taliban no longer pose a threat. I also firmly believe that our presence in the region has been an excellent recruiting tool for Al Qaeda militants. Nonetheless, we are committed to a withdrawal timetable and we need to ensure that the training of Afghan soldiers and police personnel is completed to a good standard, in order to ensure some stability for the Afghan people after we leave.

I fail to see why the war was a complete failure or why, as some say, we should not have 'gone in' in the first place. The United Kingdom as a member of NATO and an ally of the United States is obligated to pursue and punish any group that poses a threat to the citizenry. I think the numerous thwarted attacks against UK civilians (not to mention 7/7 and the lucky escape that was Glasgow Airport) show that Al Qaeda posited a threat to us (and it's worth saying that the 7/7 bombers were radicalised and were being observed by MI6 long before the Iraq and Afghan wars, so this cannot be used as an excuse for their actions). The Taliban regime gave sanctuary to the attackers and decided to protect Bin Laden. We launched a war that has had the following consequences, to quote the scholar Peter Bergen:

"A decade ago, 9 percent of Afghans had access to basic medical care. Today, 85 percent do. Under the Taliban, about one million kids (almost none of them girls) were in school, whereas now about seven million children are being educated (more than one-third of them girls, with the proportion rising). Before the U.S. occupation, a telephone system barely existed in Afghanistan. Today, one in three Afghans has a cell phone. Afghans once had access to no media outlets apart from the Taliban's Voice of Sharia radio network. Now there are, in the words of the BBC, "scores of radio stations, dozens of TV stations and some 100 active press titles." More than five million Afghan refugees have returned home. Kabul has become so crowded with cars and people that the city's pollution is statistically more lethal than the war... Afghanistan's economy is also booming. Thanks to the improvements in security provided by the United States and NATO, GDP growth between 2009 and 2010 was a strong 22 percent. No wonder, then, that 70 percent of Afghans told pollsters for the BBC late last year that their country is now going in the right direction. It's also why Afghans give surprisingly high marks to the U.S. military, even after nearly a decade of often bungled occupation: 68 percent favorable, according to a BBC/ABC poll released in January 2010."

Spoiler:

Show

Civilian deaths caused by pro-government forces decreased by 24% from 2009-2010, making up 15% of civilian casualties (the Taliban and their allies are responsible for 75% of civilian causalities). Since 2001, more than 90 percent of children are now immunized against polio. Under-5 mortality has dropped by 26 percent, to 191 deaths per 1,000 live births,and deaths of infants before age 1 have dropped by 22 percent, to 129 deaths per 1,000 live births. The number of TB treatment facilities has tripled, and TB cases have fallen by 60 percent. The population with no access to electricity declined from 94% in 2001 to 42% in 2006 to 33% in 2009. The Fair Election Foundation of Afghanistan worked with female election observers in 13 provinces in the 2009 election. In the 2010 parliamentary election, FEFA expanded its initiative to 21 additional provinces, ensuring the presence of female observers throughout the country. When USAID arrived in 2002, there were only 50 kilometers of intact paved roads. To date, USAID has built or rehabilitated approximately 2,700 kilometers of roads, including 715 kilometers of the Ring Road, national highways, and provincial and rural roads. There are now 158,000 teachers in the country, up from 21,000 in 2002. Of this number, 29 percent are women; this allows more girls to attend school. More than 500 square kilometres of land have been released back to Afghans, free of mines and remnants of war. Since 2007, more than half a million vulnerable Afghans living in mine-affected areas have received mine-risk education.

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[jesusandtequila]

(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
What exactly was the job we started 11 years ago? As I seem to recall, the invasion of Afghanistan happened because America felt the need for vengence after 11 September 2001. Any notion of installing democracy and other motivations are, as the fantasy writers would say, retconned into the narrative.

Ah, you got there first.

[Birchington]

(Original post by Rhadamanthus)
QFA

The notion that you can establish democracy by stealth bomber is simply naive. Afghanistan is never going to be an outpost of liberal western democracy, despite the dreams of various neo-liberals. Corruption is rife, and Hamid Karzai's rigging of the 2009 election undermines all the rhetoric of Afghan democracy remaining in place after we leave. The country is still heavily dominated by tribal factions and loyalties, and it is impossible to create long lasting democracy in a country whose value system is about 500 years behind our own.

Can the death of 11,864 civilians since 2007, or hundreds of our servicemen be justified. I would argue not. The constant death of civilians acts as a potent recruitment tool for Al Qaeda - young Muslim men who lose their family will often be so enraged by the presence of Western forces that they turn to terrorism, and I can understand why this would be the case.

Britain would be far less at risk of enraging Islamic fundamentalists and far less a target for terrorism, if it wasn't engaged in reckless and pointless military adventures in the Muslim world.

[obi_adorno_kenobi]

(Original post by Birchington)
The notion that you can establish democracy by stealth bomber is simply naive. Afghanistan is never going to be an outpost of liberal western democracy, despite the dreams of various neo-liberals. Corruption is rife, and Hamid Karzai's rigging of the 2009 election undermines all the rhetoric of Afghan democracy remaining in place after we leave. The country is still heavily dominated by tribal factions and loyalties, and it is impossible to create long lasting democracy in a country whose value system is about 500 years behind our own.

Ooft, someone got all teleological on us.

[thunder_chunky]

(Original post by internetguru)
Did you notice at the end of the motion 'mission complete' that means we finished the job.

So saying "Mission Accomplished" means it is conclusively done with and we should leave after a successfull campaign? Umm no it doesn't. Just look at how Dubya claimed mission accomplished for operations in Iraq just to see violence escalate. It just doesn't work like that.
I think we should stick to the plan which is a withdrawl in 2014.

[internetguru]

(Original post by thunder_chunky)
So saying "Mission Accomplished" means it is conclusively done with and we should leave after a successfull campaign? Umm no it doesn't. Just look at how Dubya claimed mission accomplished for operations in Iraq just to see violence escalate. It just doesn't work like that.
I think we should stick to the plan which is a withdrawl in 2014.

So if it is a predetermined plan made 2 years prior and we say mission complete it is fine. Yet if I propose doing it now it isn't? Nothing is going to change between now and 2014 and as a result the same consequences will be felt.

[thunder_chunky]

(Original post by internetguru)
So if it is a predetermined plan made 2 years prior and we say mission complete it is fine. Yet if I propose doing it now it isn't? Nothing is going to change between now and 2014 and as a result the same consequences will be felt.

Yeah we can't just say "mission accomplished" and leave right now. Actually between now and the arranged date of leaving there will be a lot more training of the Afghan army and police.