[Pineappledogs]

(Original post by tazarooni89)
Why does it make it seem like all men can't control themselves? I would have said it's closer to making it seem like some men can't (or rather, don't bother to) control themselves (which is true, is it not?).



I think the idea is that the first priority is to prevent it from happening, rather than worry about whose problem it is. "It's the their problem, not my problem" isn't going to be that much of a consoling thought to a person who's just been raped or molested or victim of whatever else someone might do to them.

By analogy: A sensible person might no go out by themselves at night into an area which is notorious for gun crime. This is not because they think every single person is a murderer, they're just wary of the few wh few who might be. (There's no doubt that such people do exist).
They also don't say "well if I get shot, it'll just be the killer's problem, he should be expected to control himself, I have the right to go out wherever and whenever I want". They'd probably prefer that it doesn't come to that in the first place.

Well that is why i put in brackets '(which i disagree with)' because i don't think that all men cannot control themselves either, but sadly some women do (i know a number of women who just don't trust any men). I understand the prevention method, but don't you think comparing it to someone getting shot is a little much? Also everyone has the right to go out wherever and whenever they want (unless it's illegal to do so or their in prison or something), and most people would have the the common sense not to walk home alone after dark.

[noisy06]

(Original post by Hwasim)
I just want to make one thing clear If a Muslim wants to quote the Quran at least do so in the correct way, rather than inserting your own words in just to prove a point. The actual correct english translation of this is:

"...And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed."

Sura 24:31

By saying "headscarves" is a lot different to "draw their veils over their bossoms" and has a much deeper meaning. My intention is not to offend or humiliate you just be careful in future.

Eh, No. The Arabic is very clear. Wal yadribna bi khumirihina alaa juyoobihina

Khumur means headscarf, and juyoob means chest. Veil and headscarf mean exactly the same thing here. The arabic is crystal clear.

[noisy06]

(Original post by Andre93)
Fixed

No. The word used is khumur. That is very explicit and it means headscarf. There is no scholarly difference of opinion. The Qur'an uses the word headscarf very clearly, in fact it could not have been more explicit, this is the very clear.

[ak137]

(Original post by tsr-member)
Haha, sorry. Yes, I do.

Its okay

I definitely see myself as a Muslim but others may not due to the fact that I don't cover my hair.

Meh, if you dress modestly (with or without hijab) and believe in the fundamentals of Islam, then I see no problem

[noisy06]

(Original post by Rat_Bag)
Actually the motivation to wear a headscarf is very variable. Ideology alone (as you imply) is the case in a small minority

Well, I'd argue that ideology alone comprises of the vast majority of cases. In fact, the very fact that girls are willing to put on make-up but wear the headscarf is proof in and if itself that they have only taken ideology into account. Because they know the headscarf is specifically obligated, even if they choose to wear make up, they cannot abandon the headscarf. There is no other reason, and yes, I knew many of these type of girls, so I'm not speculating. If the Qur'an did not obligate, they would not be wearing, it's as simple as that. The sole reason why they're wearing it is because of the Qur'an.

[alexs2602]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
"my muslim female friends"

I take it you're a Non-Muslim male. Basically, I wouldn't base or judge any Islamic principles on what they do or say.

That doesn't leave a lot(see: nothing) to base assumptions on. Isn't there a phrase that says something like, "judge someone on their actions rather than what they say"?

Or to put it another way, that sounds like a statement which excuses Islam of anything a Muslim does. Way to take responsibility for your Muslim 'brothers and sisters'(!)

[willbee]

You can still be modest while wanting to express yourself. Everyone chooses an image to project to others when they choose what clothes to wear, consciously or not. Except maybe hermits who live by themselves. Or lonely stranded people on islands in the middle of the Ocean. But those exceptions are few and far between and probably not young make-up and hijab-wearing women.

[Rat_Bag]

(Original post by noisy06)
Well, I'd argue that ideology alone comprises of the vast majority of cases. In fact, the very fact that girls are willing to put on make-up but wear the headscarf is proof in and if itself that they have only taken ideology into account.

Quite the opposite. The fact that on the one hand, she wears hijab in obedience to Allah who deems she should be modest and conceal her beauty in public, but then at the same time, tries to maximise and show off her beauty in the form of make-up, shows that the motivation to wear hijab is superficial at best. Ideology cannot be the main factor in these cases, unless of course the person is suffering from a deep, intransigent cognitive dissonance. Anybody rational would not mix the two (hijab and makeup).

The explosion of "hijab fashion" should be ringing alarm bells to puritan Muslims. I laugh when I see the ever increasing number of brightly coloured, attention drawing, and even Calvin Klein hijabs that you see all over Western capitals now. For some Muslims it's interpreted as the awakening, but the reality, it is the beginning of the end; Islam has entered the consumerist phase, and it's downhill from here.

(Original post by noisy06)
Because they know the headscarf is specifically obligated, even if they choose to wear make up, they cannot abandon the headscarf. There is no other reason, and yes, I knew many of these type of girls, so I'm not speculating. If the Qur'an did not obligate, they would not be wearing, it's as simple as that. The sole reason why they're wearing it is because of the Qur'an.

Most people's adherence to religion is one of going "through the motions". There are even sects of Islam that have this as the basis for their sect.

So many Muslim women wear hijaab out of conformity (in Islamic societies, whether micro or macro). And then you have the recent phenomena of Muslim women wearing hijaab out of defiance and rebellion (in non-Islamic, and mixed societies). There is a strong element of attention seeking with some of the more confident and extrovert Muslim women wearing hijab.

But ideology as the sole motivating factor, mythologised within the sentimental image of the quiet and humble Muslim woman, very few.

[Glenbot3000]

(Original post by snozzle)
Christianity isn't a collection of legal edicts like Islam, a quote from the bible doesn't actually make something a requirement of Christianity, that would require the decision of the Church (at least in Catholicism) who alone can interpret the scripture.

I have shown that art in the west have consistently had no reservations about depicting women with no hats/scarfs etc. It would be your contention that this was heretical and abnormal but there is no evidence of that.

Even on the ceiling of the sistine chapel you have paintings by Michelangelo showing women with NO hats. Fancy that, right in the heart of Christendom itself!

Western art has very little to do with anything - it's merely a commentary, rather than an accurate portrayal. Saying "well people are painted without hats" is a silly argument. Women are also often depicted naked, it doesn't mean women walked around nude.

You're just changing the goalposts entirely. I've found "prescription" from the bible AND contemporary examples... I don't even understanding what you're arguing for... :s

[noisy06]

(Original post by Rat_Bag)
Quite the opposite. The fact that on the one hand, she wears hijab in obedience to Allah who deems she should be modest and conceal her beauty in public, but then at the same time, tries to maximise and show off her beauty in the form of make-up, shows that the motivation to wear hijab is superficial at best. Ideology cannot be the main factor in these cases, unless of course the person is suffering from a deep, intransigent cognitive dissonance. Anybody rational would not mix the two (hijab and makeup).

The explosion of "hijab fashion" should be ringing alarm bells to puritan Muslims. I laugh when I see the ever increasing number of brightly coloured, attention drawing, and even Calvin Klein hijabs that you see all over Western capitals now. For some Muslims it's interpreted as the awakening, but the reality, it is the beginning of the end; Islam has entered the consumerist phase, and it's downhill from here.

With all due respect, it doesn't show she's superficial, it shows she understands what the Qur'an requires of her. If she's wearing make up, that is one thing, but the obligation of the headscarf is qur'anic, it is very explicit right there, so it is non-negotiable. So the fact that she's wearing headscarf proves that she understands the importance of following the Qur'an, even if she's wearing make-up. It is a bit like a Muslim lying while fasting. It is prohibited to lie, but that doesn't mean fasting is not obligatory, it is obligatory, it is prohibited to break a fast during Ramadan, even if is committing sins like watching porn etc. Because the Qur'anic obligation is there. You are saying that anybody rational wouldn't mix make-up and hijab, but you are forgetting that the primary reason why women wear it in the first place is in obedience to God, not to a reason. The reason being modesty. They do not live by the rules of "modesty", they live by the Qur'an, and that's a big difference, one which you might never fully understand since you're Non-Muslim.

And with regards to hijab fashion, there is nothing wrong with bright colours etc. As long as all the places that are meant to be covered are covered, then everything else can be left up to culture. Islam does not dictate what colour they should be, the finer points of the Sharia changes from time to time and place to place.

[SmileAway]

(Original post by Luxray)
...

I hate to admit it but you've just described me in a nutshell, and I do agree that it's contradictory to wear slim fitting clothes and make-up and a hijab. However, unfortunately all that means is that I am not as good (Islam-wise) as those girls who have got to that stage of piousness. It's my fault. God willing, I will one day be as good as them.

However, at the same time it would be worse in a way, if I didn't wear hijab, and had make up on and wore slim fitting clothes.

Think of it this way, it's one less sin.

[tazarooni89]

(Original post by Pineappledogs)
Well that is why i put in brackets '(which i disagree with)' because i don't think that all men cannot control themselves either, but sadly some women do (i know a number of women who just don't trust any men).

Well yes, I disagree with the idea that all men are unable to control themselves either.
My point is that in general, wearing a hijab is not the result of the belief that all men are unable to control themselves, it is a result of the belief that some men are unable (or don't bother) to do so.

i.e. when you said earlier, "It kind of makes it seem like all men cannot control themselves (which I disagree with)," I disagree that this is what it makes it seem like.

I understand the prevention method, but don't you think comparing it to someone getting shot is a little much?

Not really, because I'm not comparing the severity of the two crimes. Rather I'm comparing the approach taken towards avoiding falling victim to them.
In both cases, we care more about prevention rather than placing blame, and so in both cases, saying "it's their fault not mine" is no substitute to taking precautions.

Also everyone has the right to go out wherever and whenever they want (unless it's illegal to do so or their in prison or something), and most people would have the the common sense not to walk home alone after dark.

Well yes, I agree. There are lots of things that people have the right to do, though people with common sense still would not do them.
And that is exactly the idea behind the hijab - that while ideally they have the right to wear whatever they like without being molested, these Muslim women feel that it is common sense to wear the hijab anyway.

[Perseveranze]

(Original post by alexs2602)
That doesn't leave a lot(see: nothing) to base assumptions on. Isn't there a phrase that says something like, "judge someone on their actions rather than what they say"?

Or to put it another way, that sounds like a statement which excuses Islam of anything a Muslim does. Way to take responsibility for your Muslim 'brothers and sisters'(!)

We don't talk to Non-Mahrem, unless necessary. Hope you understand.

[alexs2602]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
We don't talk to Non-Mahrem, unless necessary. Hope you understand.

No, I don't understand. Sounds like an excuse to me. Starting to lose my respect, and if you don't care that you're losing any respect I might have for you because of your religion then I feel sorry for you.

[Perseveranze]

(Original post by alexs2602)
No, I don't understand. Sounds like an excuse to me. Starting to lose my respect, and if you don't care that you're losing any respect I might have for you because of your religion then I feel sorry for you.

Sorry, but we don't practice our faith based on who respects us and who doesn't.

What do you believe these verses is talking about;

---

“Tell the believing men to lower their gaze, and protect their private parts…” [al-Noor 24:30]

---

"Tell the believing women that they should reduce/lower (يغضضن) their gaze/vision and guard their private parts" - [Qur'an 24:31]

---

And an excuse from what?

[snozzle]

(Original post by Glenbot3000)
Western art has very little to do with anything - it's merely a commentary, rather than an accurate portrayal. Saying "well people are painted without hats" is a silly argument. Women are also often depicted naked, it doesn't mean women walked around nude.

You're just changing the goalposts entirely. I've found "prescription" from the bible AND contemporary examples... I don't even understanding what you're arguing for... :s

And I have said why you quote from the Bible isn't as important as you think. You're evidence is just a picture of a nun with a hat...what that proves I have no idea other than nuns wear hats? They also wore black so are we to infer that society imposes an obligation on all women to wear black?

You miss the point that nuns have a social position different than other women, only the former have taken special vows to serve God.

Listen, you were saying earlier - or implying - that traditional european society 'made' women wear hats for reasons of modesty on religious grounds in a parallel to Islam. I am still waiting for evidential support for this.

I don't think you realise that European art at this time would no freely make heretical or anti-Christian statements. If the body or women's hair was religiously offensive it wouldn't be as prevalent in art or painted in the sistine chapel. I think you are misunderstanding Christianity's attitude to women's hair perhaps based on your understanding of Puritanism or something?

[FunkeyMunkey]

(Original post by Pineappledogs)
Well, if you actually read my post properly you'd see that i was asking a question not stating a fact, it did start with 'can i just ask.' So now that i have found out that men do have traditional dress to wear, thank you, but it doesn't change that fact that there is more emphasis on how women dress.
Also I never said that women wear hijabs for the one and only reason that men cannot control themselves nor did i say that all men cannot control themselves. I still stand by my point that if a man gives unwanted attention to a woman then it is their problem, (and i mean if a woman does nothing to provoke that kind of attention) :/

Sorry for answering your question in a rude way, I thought you were just making assumptions Anyways I'm glad you now know that men have a 'hijab' too, and yes there is more emphasis on women because they have more area to cover.

[Rat_Bag]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
We don't talk to Non-Mahrem, unless necessary.

Who is this "we"?

[SaharaDesert]

(Original post by Rat_Bag)
Who is this "we"?

Muslims.

[Rat_Bag]

(Original post by noisy06)
With all due respect, it doesn't show she's superficial, it shows she understands what the Qur'an requires of her. If she's wearing make up, that is one thing, but the obligation of the headscarf is qur'anic, it is very explicit right there, so it is non-negotiable. So the fact that she's wearing headscarf proves that she understands the importance of following the Qur'an, even if she's wearing make-up.

You are making an assumption from an action, which is entirely baseless.

If you really do think that if a hijab wearing woman is also wearing make-up, that you can therefore infer proof of her motivation to wear hijab based on ideological reasons alone, then you have some very simplistic and poorly developed reductive skills (sorry to be so blunt).

So by your logic, if you have 2 hijab wearing women, 1 wearing hijab with make-up, and the other wearing hijab without make up, you can infer that the first is definitely wearing hijab for ideological reasons alone, but there is a question mark above the motivation for the second woman's motivation to wear hijab? Because this is the logic of your posts thus far.

(Original post by noisy06)
It is a bit like a Muslim lying while fasting. It is prohibited to lie, but that doesn't mean fasting is not obligatory, it is obligatory, it is prohibited to break a fast during Ramadan, even if is committing sins like watching porn etc. Because the Qur'anic obligation is there.

That is not a relevant analogy.

If he's fasting, and persists in lying openly, and thinks it's okay to lie, then you got to question his motivation for "fasting" in the first place.

(Original post by noisy06)
You are saying that anybody rational wouldn't mix make-up and hijab, but you are forgetting that the primary reason why women wear it in the first place is in obedience to God, not to a reason.

You are forgetting that most Muslims do not hold a puritan or Salafist mindset, and therefore do not approach Islam in the same way that you do.

(Original post by noisy06)
The reason being modesty. They do not live by the rules of "modesty", they live by the Qur'an, and that's a big difference, one which you might never fully understand since you're Non-Muslim.

With respect, being able to empathise with others' on the level of their beliefs is very much possible without believing in those beliefs. If anybody has demonstrated a lack of being able to enact such empathy, you might find it is you (as evident by your inability to contemplate broader causes and motivations for Muslims' actions, other than your own motivations, which is obedience to God's alleged word). The claim that one cannot understand x, y, z in Islam because one is a "Non-Muslim", is very reminiscent of debates with pro-choice advocates who cannot defend their pro-choice stance, so just say "you're a man, so you'll never understand it". It is a sure sign of defeat, and an expression that one cannot further the debate rationally.

The Qur'an commands modesty in general terms, and in specific terms for example in the obligation for hijab. While modesty is commanded, and thus a woman drawing attention to herself and/or her beauty (be it makeup, a brightly coloured or fashionable headscarf, etc) is disobedient in God's alleged command for modesty, thus questioning whether she wears the hijab purely as a result of it being an alleged command of God.

(Original post by noisy06)
And with regards to hijab fashion, there is nothing wrong with bright colours etc. As long as all the places that are meant to be covered are covered, then everything else can be left up to culture. Islam does not dictate what colour they should be, the finer points of the Sharia changes from time to time and place to place.

I think it is very hard to argue that an attention attracting hijab is in conformity with Qur'anic dictates or intention.
Even if you want to believe that it is, the progressive expression of individuality and sub-cultures that goes with attention seeking hijab styles, and fashionable hijab styles, is indicative of big shifts within sections of the ummah. Individuality is the first step to breaking from religion, both on an individual spiritual level, but also from the point of view of regard for Islamic hierarchial power. European Christendom, and to a fair degree, North American Christendom, has been going through this sed or viewed as a communitarian issue.