[Some random guy]

Muslims do you find the fact that slavery is perfectly legal in Islam and the prophet Mohammed indulged in it himself regularly OK? Or how it's legal to rape female slaves like what the Saudi monarch does to his many concubines?

Muslim nations were amongst the last in the world to ban slavery, only doing so due to international pressure, but slavery still continues in the Muslim world to this day.

[noisy06]

It isn't "perfectly legal" in Islam. Enslaving prisoners of war however, is legal, alongside releasing them without compensation, or releasing them with ransom. But even then once they have done what is required they are freed. Although I prefer more modern and humane methods to dealing with prisoners of war than making them work, like torture (electric shocks, waterboarding etc.), or summary executions.

[Spaz Man]

It was allowed in regards to prisoners of war. Otherwise the Prophet (pbuh) released thousands of slaves to freedom and his companions Abu Bakr and Uthman ibn Affan in particular were prominent freers of slaves due to their massive wealth. POW slaves had the full rights and dignities of any normal being during that time. The Saudi monarch is a corrupt, fat bastard.

"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves." - Prophet's last sermon before his death.

[Dhaal_Chawal]

(Original post by Some random guy)
Muslim nations were amongst the last in the world to ban slavery, only doing so due to international pressure, but slavery still continues in the Muslim world to this day.

Arab ones, yes. These ones are still highly racist and it's not to do with religion. It's to do with their culture.
I'm not implying Arabs are racist people though it may sound like that.

[Some random guy]

You are skirting the question. In Islam it is allowed to buy and sell slaves, even your own children. You may say you don't believe this to be the case but the fact is a lot of Muslims practise slavery to this day.

I even know of cases where men would buy prepubescent girls, groom them, and then rape them when they come of age. In Islam a slave must obey every command from their master, rebelling is not allowed.

[Some random guy]

Don't give me this POW BS, Mohammed regularly bought and sold slaves at market, this was not a case of POWs.

[Spaz Man]

(Original post by Some random guy)
You are skirting the question. In Islam it is allowed to buy and sell slaves, even your own children. You may say you don't believe this to be the case but the fact is a lot of Muslims practise slavery to this day.

I even know of cases where men would buy prepubescent girls, groom them, and then rape them when they come of age. In Islam a slave must obey every command from their master, rebelling is not allowed.

What is allowed and what is practised is not the same thing genius.

There are loads of pubs in Pakistan for example.

[Spaz Man]

(Original post by Some random guy)
Don't give me this POW BS, Mohammed regularly bought and sold slaves at market, this was not a case of POWs.

Muhammad personally freed 63 slaves, and his wife Aisha freed 67. In total his household and friends freed 39,237 slaves.

[Some random guy]

(Original post by Spaz Man)
Muhammad personally freed 63 slaves, and his wife Aisha freed 67. In total his household and friends freed 39,237 slaves.

Doesn't matter, he still traded in them.

What is allowed in Islam is subjective depending on the Muslim that you ask but a lot of Muslims believe slavery to be legal and so participate in it so this is certainly a case of Islam at fault.

[Dhaal_Chawal]

(Original post by Some random guy)
but a lot of Muslims believe slavery to be legal and so participate in it so this is certainly a case of Islam at fault.

Not sure if trolling or just stupid

[Spaz Man]

(Original post by Some random guy)
Doesn't matter, he still traded in them.

What is allowed in Islam is subjective depending on the Muslim that you ask but a lot of Muslims believe slavery to be legal and so participate in it so this is certainly a case of Islam at fault.

The Prophet inherited slaves. He didn't trade in them and he freed them all.

"What is allowed is Islam is subjective depending on the Muslim that you ask?" WTF?

Wait, so if a so called Muslim wanted, he could drink alcohol, eat swine, take narcotics, have incest, necrophilia and beastiality etc because according to him it's allowed in Islam? What an unbelievably stupid line of reasoning.

[Some random guy]

(Original post by Spaz Man)
The Prophet inherited slaves. He didn't trade in them and he freed them all.

"What is allowed is Islam is subjective depending on the Muslim that you ask?" WTF?

Wait, so if a so called Muslim wanted, he could drink alcohol, eat swine, take narcotics, have incest, necrophilia and beastiality etc because according to him it's allowed in Islam? What an unbelievably stupid line of reasoning.

This is the case with all religion, otherwise why would there be different denominations and disagreements? Muslims kill each other in the thousands over who is following the 'true' Islam.

Show me where slavery is ever forbidden in Islam? Islam never forbade slavery.

Typical Muslamic neg brigade with no proper arguments. I'm an ex Muslim and know my stuff, so you can't fool me with these amateur attempts.

[Spaz Man]

(Original post by Some random guy)
This is the case with all religion, otherwise why would there be different denominations and disagreements? Muslims kill each other in the thousands over who is following the 'true' Islam.

Show me where slavery is ever forbidden in Islam? Islam never forbade slavery.

Typical Muslamic neg brigade with no proper arguments. I'm an ex Muslim and know my stuff, so you can't fool me with these amateur attempts.

As an actual practising muslim who studies Islamic jurisprudence, I really don't care if you're an ex-muslim and "you know your stuff" as evidently the stuff you have already posted has been pulled out of your arse and has been soundly refuted.

[Some random guy]

(Original post by Spaz Man)
As an actual practising muslim who studies Islamic jurisprudence, I really don't care if you're an ex-muslim and "you know your stuff" as evidently the stuff you have already posted has been pulled out of your arse and has been soundly refuted.

Except you have failed to refute anything. I asked for a hadith or quote from the Quran where slavery is banned and you have failed to provide, because IT DOES NOT EXIST!

I commute with Muslims every day, being stuck in a Muslim society at the moment due to family, I know about the topics I choose to start debates on, I get my information from Muslims themselves.

Now I'm off to bed.

[The Owl of Minerva]

(Original post by Spaz Man)
What is allowed and what is practised is not the same thing genius.

There are loads of pubs in Pakistan for example.

There are pubs in Pakistan?

Where? tell me quick!!!

[The Owl of Minerva]

On a more serious note:

Not that I am taking a stand on this particular issue but these quotes are worth having a look at:

“Ibn Umar reported the prophet as saying: “If a slave marries without the permission of his master, his marriage is null and void.”
(Abu Dawud, Vol. 2, Ch. 597, No. 2074)

Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men: one) a slave under the dominion of another; He has no power of any sort; and (the other) a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favours from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly: are the two equal? (By no means) praise be to Allah. But most of them understand not.
(Quran 16:75)


Narrated Jabir: A man manumitted (freed) a slave and he had no other property than that, so the Prophet cancelled the manumission (and sold the slave for him). No’aim bin Al-Nahham bought the slave from him.

(Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 41, Number 598)

Make of this what you will but it seems to me that the commodification of human beings was never a source of contention in theological discourse. It appears that slavery was a process to be codified and regulated, rather than condemned outright.

[Perseveranze]

(Original post by Some random guy)
Muslims do you find the fact that slavery is perfectly legal in Islam and the prophet Mohammed indulged in it himself regularly OK?

Read my reply further below. Before the Prophet(pbuh) died, he free'd all his slaves.

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Narrated / Authority of: Amr bin Al-Harith

(The brother of the wife of Allah's Apostle (SAW). Juwairiya bint Al-Harith) When Allah's Apostle (SAW) died, he did not leave any Dirham or Dinar (i.e. money), a slave or a slave woman or anything else except his white mule, his arms and a piece of land which he had given in charity.

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(Original post by Some random guy)
Or how it's legal to rape female slaves like what the Saudi monarch does to his many concubines?

Complete untrue. Raping a woman, regardless of who it is, is against the Shariah.

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"If a man acquires by force a slave-girl, then has sexual intercourse with her after he acquires her by force, and if he is not excused by ignorance, then the slave-girl will be taken from him, he is required to pay the fine, and he will receive the punishment for illegal sexual intercourse." (Imam Al Shaafi'i, Kitaabul Umm, Volume 3, page 253)

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Abu al-Hussain bin al-Fadhl al-Qatan narrated from Abdullah bin Jaffar bin Darestweh from Yaqub bin Sufyan from al-Hassab bin Rabee from Abdullah bin al-Mubarak from Kahmas from Harun bin Al-Asam who said:

Umar bin al-Khatab may Allah be pleased with him sent Khalid bin al-Walid in an army, hence Khalid sent Dharar bin al-Auwzwar in a squadron and they invaded a district belonging to the tribe of Bani Asad. They then captured a pretty bride, Dharar liked her hence he asked his companions to grant her to him and they did so. He then had sexual intercourse with her, when he completed his mission he felt guilty, and went to Khalid and told him about what he did. Khalid said: 'I permit you and made it lawful to you.' He said: 'No not until you write a message to Umar'. (Then they sent a message to Umar) and Umar answered that he (Dharar) should be stoned. By the time Umar's message was delivered, Dharar was dead. (Khalid) said: 'Allah didn't want to disgrace Dharar' - Sunan Al Bayhaqi, Volume 2, page 363, Hadith no. 18685

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(Original post by Some random guy)
Muslim nations were amongst the last in the world to ban slavery, only doing so due to international pressure, but slavery still continues in the Muslim world to this day.

And it is illegal in every Muslim country that I know of.


Anyways, you sound pretty ignorant for anyone to waste their time on. Evident on your post.

So I'll briefly explain it once and leave the following facts for you, if you have difficulty comprehending it, then ask your English teacher to explain it.

Firstly, no matter what, Muhammad(pbuh) could never have abolished slavery. It would've been impossible in every practical sense.

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Prohibiting slavery in the context of seventh-century Arabia apparently would have been as useful as prohibiting poverty; it would have reflected a noble ideal but would have been unworkable on an immediate basis without establishing an entirely new socioeconomic system. - Jacob Neusner, Tamara Sonn, Comparing Religions through Law: Judaism and Islam, 1999

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"slavery was ingrained in the structure of society, and its overnight wholesale liquidation would have created problems which it would have been absolutely impossible to solve, and only a dreamer could have issued such a visionary statement." - Fazlur Rahman, Islam, University of Chicago Press, p.38

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Slavery was too fundamental to the structure of Arabian society in the 7th century to be abolished easily. Doing so would have estranged many of the tribes that Muhammad sought to bring together, and severely disrupted the working of society - The Islamaphobic BBC

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However, what Muhammad(pbuh) did do is make slavery almost extinct in Arabia.

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Islamic legislations against the abuse of the slaves convincingly limited the extent of enslavement in Arabian peninsula and to a lesser degree for the whole area of the whole Umayyad Caliphate where slavery had existed since the most ancient times. - Patrick Manning (1990) p.28

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Muhammad's expansion of Pax Islamica to the Arabian peninsula reduced warfare and raiding, and therefore cut off the sources of enslaving freemen. - Watt, Muhammad at Medina, 1956, p. 296

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As time went on, and the Islamic empire expanded, the tradition of freeing slaves became rarer, as the newly conquered nations were heavily practiced in slavery.

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To abolish it would have been impossible in a world in which it was generally practiced by all the states which bordered on the new Muslim empire, and in which the idea of challenging the principle itself had not occurred to anyone. It was the custom to enslave prisoners of war -- when these were not simply massacred -- and the Islamic state would have put itself at a grave disadvantage vis-a-vis its enemies had it not reciprocated to some extent. - Roger Du Pasquier, Unveiling Islam

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And these new conquered nations (later in time) did counter-act some of the Islamic principles of Slavery;

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"the humanitarian tendency of the Qur'an and the early caliphs in the Islamic empire, was to some extent counteracted by other influences,"- Lewis 1994, Ch.1

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It should also be acknowledged that some of the captured prisoners, preferred enslavement by Muslims, where they were treated good and had amples of opportunities to gain their freedom and start over - rather than be instantly killed or enslaved by Non-Muslims who didn't have strict regulations in protecting slaves. Don't forget, these were (by any opposition view) criminals, who just tried to kill the opposition. So for them to gain a second chance, was welcomed by many.

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"By guaranteeing them humane treatment, and various possibilities of subsequently releasing themselves, it ensured that a good number of combatants in the opposing armies preferred captivity at the hands of muslims to death on the field of battle.- Roger Du Pasquier, Unveiling Islam

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What was notably different from the slavery of the western world, however, was the degree to which they [slaves] were protected by Muslim law. When the law was observed, their treatment was good. They might expect to marry and have families of their own, and they had a good chance of being freed. There were also built in avenues of escape. - Gwyn Campbell; Frank Cass, The Structure of Slavery in Indian Ocean Africa and Asia, 2004

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And the rest is history as we know.

Slavery is illegal today, and doesn't need to be legalized. However, there may come a time in the future where it becomes a necessity, based on the actions of others (ie. a Warring country, who enslaved people of another nation). That's why it's not outright banned, as no one can tell what will happen in the future.

However, it should not be mistaken, that the Islamic principle has always been one of that in which free'ing slaves was considered one of the best of deeds. And it was always encouraged.

The following hadith is an example of how slaves viewed the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh), as a liberator -

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Hadith - Sunan of Abu Dawud, #2694, Narrated Ali ibn Abu Talib

Some slaves (of the unbelievers) went out to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) on the day of al-Hudaybiyyah before treaty. Their masters wrote to him saying: O Muhammad, they have not gone out to you with an interest in your religion, but they have gone out to escape from slavery. Some people said: They have spoken the truth, Apostle of Allah, send them back to them. The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) became angry and said: I do not see your restraining yourself from this action, group of Quraysh, but that Allah send someone to you who strike your necks. He then refused to return them, and said: They are emancipated (slaves) of Allah, the Exalted.

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And finally, it is important to note, there's more slaves in the world today than there ever was at its peak in the past. And many of these slaves reside in the west (sex trafficked).

[The Owl of Minerva]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
[SIZE=2]


Complete untrue. Raping a woman, regardless of who it is, is against the Shariah.

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"If a man acquires by force a slave-girl, then has sexual intercourse with her after he acquires her by force, and if he is not excused by ignorance, then the slave-girl will be taken from him, he is required to pay the fine, and he will receive the punishment for illegal sexual intercourse." (Imam Al Shaafi'i, Kitaabul Umm, Volume 3, page 253)

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Abu al-Hussain bin al-Fadhl al-Qatan narrated from Abdullah bin Jaffar bin Darestweh from Yaqub bin Sufyan from al-Hassab bin Rabee from Abdullah bin al-Mubarak from Kahmas from Harun bin Al-Asam who said:

Umar bin al-Khatab may Allah be pleased with him sent Khalid bin al-Walid in an army, hence Khalid sent Dharar bin al-Auwzwar in a squadron and they invaded a district belonging to the tribe of Bani Asad. They then captured a pretty bride, Dharar liked her hence he asked his companions to grant her to him and they did so. He then had sexual intercourse with her, when he completed his mission he felt guilty, and went to Khalid and told him about what he did. Khalid said: 'I permit you and made it lawful to you.' He said: 'No not until you write a message to Umar'. (Then they sent a message to Umar) and Umar answered that he (Dharar) should be stoned. By the time Umar's message was delivered, Dharar was dead. (Khalid) said: 'Allah didn't want to disgrace Dharar' - Sunan Al Bayhaqi, Volume 2, page 363, Hadith no. 18685

I see your two quotes and I raise you two ahadith and a verse from the Qur'an:

O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses (slaves) out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee (Quran 33:50) (See also Quran 23:5-6, 70:29-30, 4:24, 8:69) (See also Sahih Bukhari 62:137, 34:432)

Sa’id al-Khudri reported that at the Battle of Hunain Allah’s Messenger sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah’s Messenger seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that:” And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (slaves) (Quran 4:. 24)” (i. e. they were lawful for them when their ‘Idda period came to an end).
(Sahih Muslim 8:3432)

“And all married women (are forbidden unto you) except those (captives) whom your right hands possess (because their captivity is equivalent to divorce).” (Qur’an 4:24)

[Perseveranze]

(Original post by The Owl of Minerva)
I see your two quotes and I raise you two ahadith and a verse from the Qur'an:

O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses (slaves) out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee (Quran 33:50) (See also Quran 23:5-6, 70:29-30, 4:24, 8:69) (See also Sahih Bukhari 62:137, 34:432)

"Lawful" does not mean "rape" (I seriously don't understand where you got this from). It basically means you are allowed to engage in sexual relations with your wife and your slaves. Otherwise people would marry and never have kids, which is what Christian Priests would do.

That's why the Prophet(pbuh) used to say, "consider it a gift that women are lawful to you", otherwise you would have no right to come near them, and them to you.

Read the commentry of that verse here - http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?opt...1839&Itemid=89

(Original post by The Owl of Minerva)
Sa’id al-Khudri reported that at the Battle of Hunain Allah’s Messenger sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah’s Messenger seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that:” And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (slaves) (Quran 4:. 24)” (i. e. they were lawful for them when their ‘Idda period came to an end).
(Sahih Muslim 8:3432)

Again, in no way does this show or imply "rape". Also, this translation isn't accurate, a more accurate translation is;

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"On authority of Abi Sa'id al-Khudri, that the Messenger of Allah SAWS sent an army to 'Awtas on the day of Hunayn. So they encountered an enemy, fought them, overcame them and they acquired captives. Then it was as though men from the Companions of the Messenger of Allah SAWS abstained from sleeping with them on account of their husbands among the polytheists. So Allah, exalted is He, revealed about that: {...and the married among women except for whatever your right hands possess}[an-Nisa': 24], meaning: they are permissible for them when they complete their waiting period [i.e. deliver if they are with child or menstruate if they are not pregnant]."

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Here the companians(ra) refrained from sexual intercourse with the slave captives, as they believed that "sexual relations are only permissible in marriage".

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مَعْنَى تَحَرَّجُوا خَافُوا الْحَرَجَ وَهُوَ الْإِثْمُ مِنْ غِشْيَانِهِنَّ أَيْ مِنْ وَطْئِهِنَّ مِنْ أَجْلِ أَنَّهُنَّ زَوْجَاتٌ وَالْمُزَوَّجَةُ لَا تَحِلُّ لِغَيْرِ زَوْجِهَا...فَإِن� �َهُ يَنْفَسِخُ نِكَاحُ زَوْجِهَا الْكَافِرِ وَتَحِلُّ لَكُمْ

Sharh Sahih Muslim 10/35:

"...[they abstained] meaning 'they feared embarrassment' and that it was a sin; [from sleeping with them] meaning 'having sex with them'; because they were married and the one who is married is not permissible to anyone other than her husband"..."So indeed [captivity] nullifies the marriage of her husband, the Disbeliever, and she is permissible for [the captors]..."

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However, that verse was revealed to say that slaves are permissible for them to have sexual intercourse with.

It should be noted that if they are polytheists, then they are not permissible to have sexual intercourse with. That is why we know the slaves in this particular hadith had converted to Islam. As the classical scholar Imam Nawawi states;

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And know that the school of thought of Al Shafi'i and who agreed with him from amongst the scholars have stated that the idol worshipper and those whom have no religious book cannot be approached for sexual intercourse unless they convert to Islam first. As long as they are following their religion they are forbidden to approach. These slave girls (i.e. in the particular narration) are idol worshippers. This hadith and whatever resembles it must be interpreted as implying that the slave girls accepted Islam. There is no other choice but to interpret the hadiths this way and Allah knows best. (Imam Nawawi, Sharh Saheeh Muslim, Kitab: Al Ridaa', Bab: Jawaaz Wati' Al Missbiyyah Ba'd Al Istibraa' wa en Kaana laha Zawj Infasakh, Commentary on Hadith no. 2643, Source)

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It should also be noted, that like Christianity/Judaism (and many other slave/captive customs), the previous marriages of captives are annulled. (Keep in mind that this was the expected custom, in Islamic warfare, you always get 3 choices; Convert to Islam and live amongst us, live as Protected Dhimmi's - with all your rights, relations and everything being protected, or fight till the death - with the chance of captivity/slavery). Not all chose the last option, but once they did, they knew exactly what to expect.

In the end, it only shows that Muslims were allowed to have sexual relations with their slaves (consensual). It had a few benefits;

- Greater chance of freedom through slaves pregnancy.
- Sexual desires of slaves being fulfilled.
- Greater chance of freedom through marriage, as Masters tended to marry slaves they had relations with.

Otherwise, as proven in the hadiths above very vividly, you can't force yourself upon a slave. And if a Master was that desperate, they may just sell the slave to someone who wasn't after any sexual desires.

And lastly, let this be a lesson to people, that this is why you don't take a inaccurate random english hadith translation and make up random judgments based on it. You would never have known the slaves became Muslim etc.

(Original post by The Owl of Minerva)
“And all married women (are forbidden unto you) except those (captives) whom your right hands possess (because their captivity is equivalent to divorce).” (Qur’an 4:24)

As already explained above, this verse was only to notify the companians(ra) that they were allowed to have sexual relations with slaves.

You can read the commentary here - http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?opt...=684&Itemid=59

[Shafski]

Oh its you again.

Go out and get a life instead of constantly making threads bashing on another religion. Or are you just another 30 year old in his moms basement that spends hours trying to be some godly troll on forums, and in the real world is one of those pathetic fools