[Mbob]

(Original post by Darth Stewie)
If you want to question the morality of his actions then you also have to address the issue of how it is fair for a millionaire to pay a personal tax considerably more than someone on a average salary despite them probably using the same level of government services. Our whole tax system is built around financial sensibility not ethics

I understand what you're saying, but I don't accept that because something may be done largely for practical reasons, it follows that the whole issue becomes amoral.

My argument for an element of morality is essentially:

1. That it is legitimate for a democratically elected government to raise taxes and determine public spending as it sees fit, because its decisions reflect the consensus of the people.

2. Since 'fairness' is subjective, it makes sense to call this consensus position on tax and spend the 'fairest'.

3. That by contriving to avoid paying tax, a person ensures that either other people must pay more tax, or that the services people receive will decline in quality.

4. That person is therefore causing an unfair situation in the terms that we have described it.

If you do not accept points 1 and 2, which perhaps you don't, then obviously the whole argument falls apart.

If you do accept points 1 and 2, then any arguments about whether it is fair for a millionaire to pay more tax become irrelevant, since 'fairness' has already been decided in the ballot box.

As an analogy, if a group of us were shipwrecked and floating about in a lifeboat, and we decided to ration our food, I think it would be clearly immoral for one of us to eat more than his share. If the sharing of the food is decided by a vote, then it's not a requirement that all shares are equal for it to be immoral. (We could for example, decide that the person who is rowing us to a distant island gets more food).

Also Jimmy Carr is hardly Mr Burns, he is involved in various charitable endeavors and puts in a lot of time and effort to raise money for good causes.

I wasn't really criticising Jimmy Carr myself, just pointing out that if you make a living at least partly by satirising others, then you have to accept that you are likely to face greater scrutiny yourself. I think it was silly of the PM to make the comments he did, unless he is willing to pass judgement on the tax affairs of anyone he is asked about.

[Transcendence]

(Original post by DaveSmith99)
Except it would kill off social mobility entirely, so the poor would have no motivation to stive towards being rich as it would be impossible.

Of course they would. Richer you are, the cheaper tax is relative to your earnings

[DaveSmith99]

(Original post by Transcendence)
Of course they would. Richer you are, the cheaper tax is relative to your earnings

Its not that the poor wouldn't want to be rich, its that the poor would have no opportunity to become rich. Also knows as social mobility.

[Transcendence]

(Original post by DaveSmith99)
Its not that the poor wouldn't want to be rich, its that the poor would have no opportunity to become rich. Also knows as social mobility.

There is always a way.

[Bornblue]

You know, the government are having to cut pensions, raise tuition fees and lay off thousands of staff because there isn't enough money. The reason there isn't enough money is because millionaires aren't paying their tax.

[Tom_Hagen]

(Original post by Bornblue)
You know, the government are having to cut pensions, raise tuition fees and lay off thousands of staff because there isn't enough money. The reason there isn't enough money is because millionaires aren't paying their tax.

No. There isn't enough money, because the government feels it should get involved in everything.

Maybe they shouldn't be starting wars or trying to police the world when we don't have enough money. Maybe, we shouldn't be paying bureaucrats in the government more than the Prime Minister, maybe we shouldn't have so many government departments, maybe we should have privatised health care with subsidies for the poor, maybe Gordon Brown shouldn't have sold off our gold reserves, maybe Gordon Brown shouldn't have taken away a tax credit mostly used by pension funds which has now caused a £1000bn blackhole in our pension system, maybe the government should stop lying people by pretending to put money into this 'blackhole' as peoples' pension - a pension our generation will NEVER see, maybe successive governments should stop trying to use 'tax and spend' to buy votes from a certain demographic.

Oh and to suggest that tax evasion is the cause of the cuts is stupidity to an unimaginable extent.

Just remember this when you're 70 years old and you're still working because the government has raised the retirement age to 85 and you haven't seen a penny of what you contributing towards the state. Maybe you're rich and you're happy to pay tax. I'm not. I'm working class. I'd like to keep my own money and manage my own financial affairs. I do not believe the government knows how to better spend my money.

[M1F2R3]

My grandfather earned £44,000 (well over £310,000 today) in a year during the 1960s, he was made to pay 92%. Tax avoidance is not illegal, everybody has seemed to turn a blind eye to the Vodafone scandal and focused on an individual who has been politically targeted.

So, should my parents be taxed more than others? Implement an unfair scheme, I guarantee you the lower earning members of society will lose out.

My parents are not only one step away from leaving this country (and selling their businesses, risking job losses) but a number of close friends have already purchased property abroad and are seriously considering relocating permanently.

Just sayin'

[Tom_Hagen]

(Original post by M1F2R3)
My grandfather earned £44,000 (well over £310,000 today) in a year during the 1960s, he was made to pay 92%. Tax avoidance is not illegal, everybody has seemed to turn a blind eye to the Vodafone scandal and focused on an individual who has been politically targeted.

So, should my parents be taxed more than others? Implement an unfair scheme, I guarantee you the lower earning members of society will lose out.

My parents are not only one step away from leaving this country (and selling their businesses, risking job losses) but a number of close friends have already purchased property abroad and are seriously considering relocating permanently.

Just sayin'

92% was the effective tax rate in the '60s, under the then Labour government.

The same Labour government that led this country going, hat in hand to the IMF begging for money in 1976.

Socialists cannot be trusted to run our economy.

[M1F2R3]

(Original post by Tom_Hagen)
92% was the effective tax rate in the '60s, under the then Labour government.

The same Labour government that led this country going, hat in hand to the IMF begging for money in 1976.

Socialists cannot be trusted to run our economy.

I believe it went to 99.x% in the early 70's due to WW2.

All I know is, my granddad did once pay 92% on £44k (back then)... I consider that a disgrace considering he was from poverty and used his intelligence and entrepreneurial skills to exploit a market then to have 92% of his hard craft taken.

How would you all feel?

[Arekkusu]

The government designs the taxation system to optimise the amount of revenue. If some people get away without paying, well done them, and the government will already have run the game-theoretical simulation and have incorporated that result into their calculations. Somebody getting out of paying taxes does not impinge significantly on the government's grand plan.

[Tom_Hagen]

(Original post by M1F2R3)
I believe it went to 99.x% in the early 70's due to WW2.

All I know is, my granddad did once pay 92% on £44k (back then)... I consider that a disgrace considering he was from poverty and used his intelligence and entrepreneurial skills to exploit a market then to have 92% of his hard craft taken.

How would you all feel?

I agree completely. Students on here, fail to grasp this concept. If I've worked hard for my money - I want control of where it goes. I don't (personally) mind contributing a small amount to help others around me - but it should be as voluntary possible.

[Tom_Hagen]

[DaveSmith99]

(Original post by Tom_Hagen)
I agree completely. Students on here, fail to grasp this concept. If I've worked hard for my money - I want control of where it goes. I don't (personally) mind contributing a small amount to help others around me - but it should be as voluntary possible.

How would you feel if you were born into a poor family and then stuck in a poverty trap. People fail to grasp that that's what would happen without taxation.

[Tom_Hagen]

(Original post by DaveSmith99)
How would you feel if you were born into a poor family and then stuck in a poverty trap. People fail to grasp that that's what would happen without taxation.

I was born into a poor family.

I understand the difficulties faced by people. But I don't think aggressive taxation, forced redistribution of wealth is the most efficient tool for social mobility.

Yes, I benefited greatly from a free education -the single biggest material factor that will (hopefully) allow me to get a decent job and do well in life.

But I think there are better ways of doing things. I refuse to take part in class hatred, that is now being encouraged by Unions and Labour party. They have to understand the Government/State are the biggest culprits in this recession. The banks are at fault too, but not alone. The politicians are just using them as a scapegoat.

That is the only reason this taxation issue is now under the spotlight. The Labour party ruined the country's finances whilst they were in power. Now the conservatives want to maximise revenue so they can carry on this charade.

[Subology]

Danny Alexander's office has announced today that if tax avoidance loop holes were closed, 2p could be dropped of the basic tax rate. I hope this story has legs.

I loved seeing Blair squirm when asked about Car on Andrew Mar this morning. Squirming because he, himself, is equally as 'morally repugnant'.

I hope this story runs and runs. I hope people are named a shamed; especially those close to government. It is absurd that some who pay next to no tax, should be allowed to draft legislation that would weaken the working rights of normal, tax-paying citizens. Absurd. What a farce of a democracy.

[Tom_Hagen]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1yiRm46lv - Good stuff. Hate quoting the DM, but it'll suffice on this occasion.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...ding-cuts.html - David Laws - a Lib Dem with more sense than Danny Alexander.

(Original post by Subology)
See above.

[goape]

(Original post by ForKicks)
Always going to happen when you have high tax rates.

Always going to happen when you have tax rates above 3%.