[wanderlust.xx]

I just got my result yesterday and I'm pretty pleased on the whole. Only I have no idea what to do next.

I loved my degree and I really liked the maths I studied, so for the longest time I've just thought of being an actuary but I'm not sure if this is a wise decision. It's a long commitment! What if I try it and I hate it?

I feel like taking the academic route is out of the question because there are plenty who are cleverer than I am.

The things I'm truly passionate about are movies and games, and both industries are very difficult to get into. With a first in maths, I'm juggling the idea of being a programmer but again I think I lack the programming ability (and learning would be a bitch). I guess I'm into space and the idea of being an astronomer or something but my physics is weak from Gcse (got a C, entered for foundation).

Can anyone recommend any gaming positions that would require high technical ability without the use of programming? Or even just a job that wasn't ridiculously hard to get into? Should I just be an actuary since I know I love maths?

Thanks for the help guys, probably couldn't have done my degree without TSR.

[boromir9111]

Got no idea but just wanted to say congrats on your First.....well done

[teamnoether]

First off, congratulations! I don't have any particular jobs to recommend (sorry), but I do have a few broader suggestions.

1. If you've managed a first in maths, you're probably selling yourself short in terms of your ability to branch out to other fields. If the trouble of learning something like programming is prohibitive for you, then you maybe just don't love the subject that much (which is totally fine, but suggests that it might not be an ideal career). If, on the other hand, you're avoiding it because you're worried you're not clever enough, I would encourage you to dive in with both feet. You've clearly got some basic aptitude, and if that's the case then passion can carry you more or less wherever you want to go.

2. If you don't know what you want to do, be willing to change your mind. This can be very difficult to do, because you have to start back at the bottom again and may feel like you've wasted time on an industry that ultimately wasn't for you, but is so important not to get caught up in the "sunk cost". If you've spent three or four years on a career path, you aren't wedded to it. Think about the 30 or 40 or 50 years you still have ahead of you. If you really think you might like being an actuary, give it a go. Give it maybe a year, and then reassess. If you don't care for it, try something new. Industries will try to convince you that you need to stay for one reason or another, but it's really not the case. You only get trapped in the rat race if you tell yourself you don't have options.

[Jelkin]

I don't know the answer to most of your questions, but I will say a bit about actuaries. I work in a less mathsy branch as it's a) in pensions and b) a consultancy, but still.

You could always try out actuarial and move onto something else - just because there are exams, doesn't mean it matters if you move on. The only thing to consider is if some firms make you pay them back for study stuff if you leave before qualification, but I've never heard any real examples of this happening. I don't think my firm does.

Also, if you'd be going into it for the maths, I guess GI is probably a good starting point as it's more technical than pensions.

My flatmate, who started as a grad at the same time as me, is doing a secondment to the Systems team at work, so he basically learnt some programming on the job - and he is really enjoying it. I'm sure you could do it as you're obviously pretty bright! Not to say that you should of course, but I don't think you should rule it out just because you're not sure. My people manager at work did a PhD in maths and then taught for a while at university level, but he decided to stop because even though he's really really intelligent, he said he wasn't okay with being "quite good" in comparison to all the maths geniuses at the top. My flatmate was thinking of doing a maths PhD but is now glad he took this job - and he can always go that route later if he wants, or go into actuarial research.

Sorry, I'm waffling. I've been chatting while writing this. Anyway, don't stress too much, you have so many options!

[Peel]

Human calculator?

Jokes aside, congrats! But I don't really understand why not actuary - seems like a good fit, and no one is 100% sure they'll like something. You might hate the job, but you also might absolutely love it, the only certain thing is that you won't know until you try it. Besides you have nothing to loose - try it for like a year and if it's not your thing you've only lost a year, and you would have gained some valuable experience on the way

[old glory]

University? ECs?

Also, congrats! I think it's fair to say in your case there won't be a huge problem finding SOMETHING.

[wanderlust.xx]

(Original post by teamnoether)
First off, congratulations! I don't have any particular jobs to recommend (sorry), but I do have a few broader suggestions.

1. If you've managed a first in maths, you're probably selling yourself short in terms of your ability to branch out to other fields. If the trouble of learning something like programming is prohibitive for you, then you maybe just don't love the subject that much (which is totally fine, but suggests that it might not be an ideal career). If, on the other hand, you're avoiding it because you're worried you're not clever enough, I would encourage you to dive in with both feet. You've clearly got some basic aptitude, and if that's the case then passion can carry you more or less wherever you want to go.

2. If you don't know what you want to do, be willing to change your mind. This can be very difficult to do, because you have to start back at the bottom again and may feel like you've wasted time on an industry that ultimately wasn't for you, but is so important not to get caught up in the "sunk cost". If you've spent three or four years on a career path, you aren't wedded to it. Think about the 30 or 40 or 50 years you still have ahead of you. If you really think you might like being an actuary, give it a go. Give it maybe a year, and then reassess. If you don't care for it, try something new. Industries will try to convince you that you need to stay for one reason or another, but it's really not the case. You only get trapped in the rat race if you tell yourself you don't have options.

Point 1: I think perhaps I am selling myself short, but I did do a C++ module in my first year and ended up barely passing by just doing the maths part of the exam and avoiding all the programming bits! This is what worries me the most. I actually used to love coding basic HTML, CSS and even tried to learn Javascript when I was younger, but I always felt like I didn't truly understand what was going on, so I've always found programming to be quite daunting.

As for the second point, I think that's an extremely important piece of advice, and thank you for sharing it. I never really thought about my career in terms of the 50 or so years I'll be working, so I guess in the grand scheme of things, starting off in a couple of different places for a while might not be a bad thing.

I actually feel like my love of maths is my strongest personality trait... it makes people believe I'm cleverer than I am and gives them the confidence to invest in my abilities. In that sense, working as an actuarial consultant or something that involves selling mathematical ideas sounds like it'd be good for me, but that's on paper, of course.

(Original post by Jelkin)
I don't know the answer to most of your questions, but I will say a bit about actuaries. I work in a less mathsy branch as it's a) in pensions and b) a consultancy, but still.

You could always try out actuarial and move onto something else - just because there are exams, doesn't mean it matters if you move on. The only thing to consider is if some firms make you pay them back for study stuff if you leave before qualification, but I've never heard any real examples of this happening. I don't think my firm does.

Also, if you'd be going into it for the maths, I guess GI is probably a good starting point as it's more technical than pensions.

My flatmate, who started as a grad at the same time as me, is doing a secondment to the Systems team at work, so he basically learnt some programming on the job - and he is really enjoying it. I'm sure you could do it as you're obviously pretty bright! Not to say that you should of course, but I don't think you should rule it out just because you're not sure. My people manager at work did a PhD in maths and then taught for a while at university level, but he decided to stop because even though he's really really intelligent, he said he wasn't okay with being "quite good" in comparison to all the maths geniuses at the top. My flatmate was thinking of doing a maths PhD but is now glad he took this job - and he can always go that route later if he wants, or go into actuarial research.

Sorry, I'm waffling. I've been chatting while writing this. Anyway, don't stress too much, you have so many options!

Now you and JohnnySPal (not sure if I even spelt that right, but whatever) are actually the two people on TSR that I mostly like to learn from, so you posting gives me a great deal of encouragement! :P I suppose I never really thought about doing an actuarial job for just a year. I was actually looking at going into pensions rather than insurance or GI, since GI seems like it'd be filled with true geniuses who really know what they're doing. Perhaps I'm selling myself short again, but I have an image of GI where you'd see differential equations on people's desks and people walking about discussing complicated mathematical ideas that are rarely discussed at anything less than PhD or doctorate level! (Perhaps I'm watching too much Big Bang Theory).

I'm actually trying to look for positions but it seems I've left it late, and most graduate programmes are closed. Is there any other way into the profession that you might suggest that could get me working as an actuary within the next few months, even if it's temporary?

Thanks for the help, I'll take what you said on board and definitely have a good think.

[wanderlust.xx]

(Original post by Peel)
Human calculator?

Jokes aside, congrats! But I don't really understand why not actuary - seems like a good fit, and no one is 100% sure they'll like something. You might hate the job, but you also might absolutely love it, the only certain thing is that you won't know until you try it. Besides you have nothing to loose - try it for like a year and if it's not your thing you've only lost a year, and you would have gained some valuable experience on the way

Thanks! Actually the more I think about it, the more I want to be an actuary. The exams actually sound like they'd be a lot of fun (no joke, I do enjoy learning... might not once I'm there but we'll see) and explaining complicated ideas to people sounds like my strong suit.

The only problem with being an actuary is the first step - getting into your first job. It seems highly competitive and most schemes are closed now, so I have no idea what to do!

[Jelkin]

(Original post by wanderlust.xx)
As for the second point, I think that's an extremely important piece of advice, and thank you for sharing it. I never really thought about my career in terms of the 50 or so years I'll be working, so I guess in the grand scheme of things, starting off in a couple of different places for a while might not be a bad thing.

I actually feel like my love of maths is my strongest personality trait... it makes people believe I'm cleverer than I am and gives them the confidence to invest in my abilities. In that sense, working as an actuarial consultant or something that involves selling mathematical ideas sounds like it'd be good for me, but that's on paper, of course.

Now you and JohnnySPal (not sure if I even spelt that right, but whatever) are actually the two people on TSR that I mostly like to learn from, so you posting gives me a great deal of encouragement! :P I suppose I never really thought about doing an actuarial job for just a year. I was actually looking at going into pensions rather than insurance or GI, since GI seems like it'd be filled with true geniuses who really know what they're doing. Perhaps I'm selling myself short again, but I have an image of GI where you'd see differential equations on people's desks and people walking about discussing complicated mathematical ideas that are rarely discussed at anything less than PhD or doctorate level! (Perhaps I'm watching too much Big Bang Theory).

I'm actually trying to look for positions but it seems I've left it late, and most graduate programmes are closed. Is there any other way into the profession that you might suggest that could get me working as an actuary within the next few months, even if it's temporary?

Thanks for the help, I'll take what you said on board and definitely have a good think.

I think the thing to bear in mind is that you are never going to start any job thinking, "YES, this is DEFINITELY what I want to do." And to some extent you have to accept that and try stuff out - that's the only way you'll find out what you enjoy!

I do know what you mean re: people thinking you're smart because you like maths. I did English at uni and people's attitude was often pretty much, "cool, I can read myself." Whereas if you're doing something mathsy then people are instantly impressed without knowing anything else! Hah. Of course, you'd be working alongside some real smarty pants, but I'm afraid that's sort of unavoidable in many jobs.

So yeah, it's hard to say - I suppose that under an extreme generalisation you could say that GI is more likely to have super smart people who aren't quite as sociable whereas pensions consultancy will have actuaries who are better with people due to the consultancy side of things and less technically-minded. That being said, I can think of four people at my firm off the top of my head who have PhDs (although no one uses their titles or the letters after their name, so you don't often know), and some people are just super-intelligent regardless of qualification.

Thing is, I suppose in my kind of work you could say that it's less important to be super good at all that stuff - so long as you can do it to the right standard and get the right numbers, it's more important to be good at consulting (at least further down the line). Yet it will also be beneficial to be able to come up with new ways of doing things and new services you can offer to clients to help them save money. I don't know how GI is with that kind of thing although I suspect your idea of their everyday conversation is a little further than it goes!

I think you'll find the exams pretty interesting, like you say, but the level of maths involved in the job will probably be nothing compared to the kinds of things you'd do at high degree level. I do find it really interesting and challenging though, and this will sound strange but I really like the people in actuarial work, both at my firm and actuarial social events. Not sure why but I suspect it's because they're often a bit nerdy but in a really comfortable sociable kind of way.

Yeah, I suspect you've missed some of the internship deadlines (although graduate deadlines will start opening again in a few months!). BUT you could do what JohnnySPal did and go through recruitment agencies; IIRC he said that Reed Actuarial and Emerald are pretty good. If you look up The Actuary (the profession's journal) online, there are a ton of recruitment agencies advertised at the back.

So yeah. I've tried to give a balanced view of what it's like. What is important to you in a job? Pay? Hours? Working with/without people?


By the way, thanks for the compliment! V flattered

[M1011]

(Original post by Jelkin)
I do know what you mean re: people thinking you're smart because you like maths. I did English at uni and people's attitude was often pretty much, "cool, I can read myself." Whereas if you're doing something mathsy then people are instantly impressed without knowing anything else! Hah. Of course, you'd be working alongside some real smarty pants, but I'm afraid that's sort of unavoidable in many jobs.

Utilising the old vocabulary there are ya? lol

[Jelkin]

(Original post by M1011)
Utilising the old vocabulary there are ya? lol

My English degree means I am qualified to use English however I wish and I am always right

I did actually have an internal debate over whether to put a hyphen in "smarty pants". In retrospect I think I should have done. Damn.

[wanderlust.xx]

(Original post by Jelkin)
I think the thing to bear in mind is that you are never going to start any job thinking, "YES, this is DEFINITELY what I want to do." And to some extent you have to accept that and try stuff out - that's the only way you'll find out what you enjoy!

I do know what you mean re: people thinking you're smart because you like maths. I did English at uni and people's attitude was often pretty much, "cool, I can read myself." Whereas if you're doing something mathsy then people are instantly impressed without knowing anything else! Hah. Of course, you'd be working alongside some real smarty pants, but I'm afraid that's sort of unavoidable in many jobs.

So yeah, it's hard to say - I suppose that under an extreme generalisation you could say that GI is more likely to have super smart people who aren't quite as sociable whereas pensions consultancy will have actuaries who are better with people due to the consultancy side of things and less technically-minded. That being said, I can think of four people at my firm off the top of my head who have PhDs (although no one uses their titles or the letters after their name, so you don't often know), and some people are just super-intelligent regardless of qualification.

Thing is, I suppose in my kind of work you could say that it's less important to be super good at all that stuff - so long as you can do it to the right standard and get the right numbers, it's more important to be good at consulting (at least further down the line). Yet it will also be beneficial to be able to come up with new ways of doing things and new services you can offer to clients to help them save money. I don't know how GI is with that kind of thing although I suspect your idea of their everyday conversation is a little further than it goes!

I think you'll find the exams pretty interesting, like you say, but the level of maths involved in the job will probably be nothing compared to the kinds of things you'd do at high degree level. I do find it really interesting and challenging though, and this will sound strange but I really like the people in actuarial work, both at my firm and actuarial social events. Not sure why but I suspect it's because they're often a bit nerdy but in a really comfortable sociable kind of way.

Yeah, I suspect you've missed some of the internship deadlines (although graduate deadlines will start opening again in a few months!). BUT you could do what JohnnySPal did and go through recruitment agencies; IIRC he said that Reed Actuarial and Emerald are pretty good. If you look up The Actuary (the profession's journal) online, there are a ton of recruitment agencies advertised at the back.

So yeah. I've tried to give a balanced view of what it's like. What is important to you in a job? Pay? Hours? Working with/without people?


By the way, thanks for the compliment! V flattered

Thanks for the advice, didn't realise you actually asked me a few questions at the end... I was more focused on the stuff you said about actuarial recruitment companies!

I guess for me I just want a job where I can work with clients, build a rapport one on one and then get on with my own work OR solicit the help of others on my own terms. I feel like I'd be good working on my own, ask for help, then retreat into my own space, which I feel like I could do as an actuary.

I've been looking around a few places and the only grad schemes open are First Actuarial and Towers Watson. I've applied to the former but the latter's asking for modular grades, and I think I'll wait until those come out (July 3rd) until I finish that application.

Other than that, there's absolutely nothing on reed (it's all for part qualified peeps). I've contacted Darwin Rhodes, Actual Search and Emerald so I guess I'm just hoping they can do something for me.

As you said, I think I'll find the exams interesting, and I'm considering learning CT1, especially since I'm kind of apprehensive about taking the route of being an actuary in the first place. Somehow I feel like I don't have the aptitude to do these exams, but another part of me tells me to shut up and do it. I'm listening to that part for now.

It doesn't help that my extended family think I'm doing nothing to find a job. They're recommending places that I'm not that keen on (actuarial I'm really keen on) and they think I'm sitting here with a finger up my arse because they don't even know what an actuary does.

[KyraBloke]

You could try and get a 0th instead of a first
Or you could figure out if 0th really exists!