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Was South Africa better off under the Apartheid?

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    "These are the facts, which anyone who hopes to do South Africa justice should know and should just as quickly forget: More than 50 murders a day are committed throughout the country, which comes to more than 18,000 a year, a woman is raped every few minutes, and someone is robbed every few seconds. In Germany, which sees 2,000 murders a year, such numbers are inconceivable. But South Africa doesn't need to compare itself to Germany or Europe. After all, the country has enough to worry about on its own."

    The Spiegel

    # Unemployment is at a staggering 45%+ - much worse than under white rule & worse than the 30% unemployment in the USA during the Great Depression.


    # 1,450+ White commercial farmers have been murdered by blacks


    # South Africa is the rape capital of the world... it is conservatively estimated that we have 50,000 rapes per year.


    # 21,500 children were raped in 2000.


    # 40% of rape survivors are under 18.


    # 150-200 policemen are shot dead annually by violent criminals.

    # Our society is 7 times more violent (per capita) than the USA

    # Crime is so high the government put a moratorium on the release of crime statistics

    # The Democratic Alliance (conservatively) estimates there are 300,000 robberies per year


    Click image for larger version. 

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    No. :facepalm: The use of that graph presupposes socioeconomic welfare is nationally homogeneous, which it certainly is not. Apartheid by its very nature necessitates a fundamental lacuna in the welfare and opportunities of the nation's population. There is nothing 'better' about a country where a substantial portion of the population is socially, medically, politically and economically subjugated for no other reason than having darker skin than another portion of the population.
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    No.
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    How one can justify the slavery of the majority is beyond me...
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    (Original post by MeGusta)
    How one can justify the slavery of the majority is beyond me...
    It wasn't slavery it was segregation.
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    :troll::troll::troll::troll::troll:
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    (Original post by Notethis)
    It wasn't slavery it was segregation.
    It was borderline slavery.
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    Who cares? Morality > Economic/social benefits. I'm sure if 70% of us enslaved 30% of the population we could live a good life with minimal working hours.
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    (Original post by MeGusta)
    It was borderline slavery.
    Not even close.
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    (Original post by sr90)
    So you're saying South Africa is a better country post-apartheid?
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    Don't mention slavery Blacks had black slaves long before whites started that venture.

    The fact is that african races cannot build stable societies. It takes the collective conscience and organisational abilities of other races to build something stable. I personally think Its to do with the mean IQ in the population being too low for things to work. I completely reject the idea that its cultural and can be changed, since culture is an expression of peoples innate behaviour, if refined or manipulated somewhat.

    They have evolved for muscle not intelligence, its genetic! Anyone who says otherwise is being politically correct and ignoring the facts.
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    (Original post by thebruciebonus)
    Don't mention slavery Blacks had black slaves long before whites started that venture.

    The fact is that african races cannot build stable societies. It takes the collective conscience and organisational abilities of other races to build something stable. I personally think Its to do with the mean IQ in the population being too low for things to work. I completely reject the idea that its cultural and can be changed, since culture is an expression of peoples innate behaviour, if refined or manipulated somewhat.

    They have evolved for muscle not intelligence, its genetic! Anyone who says otherwise is being politically correct and ignoring the facts.
    Unfortunately, this may well be true.
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    (Original post by thebruciebonus)
    Don't mention slavery Blacks had black slaves long before whites started that venture.

    The fact is that african races cannot build stable societies. It takes the collective conscience and organisational abilities of other races to build something stable. I personally think Its to do with the mean IQ in the population being too low for things to work. I completely reject the idea that its cultural and can be changed, since culture is an expression of peoples innate behaviour, if refined or manipulated somewhat.

    They have evolved for muscle not intelligence, its genetic! Anyone who says otherwise is being politically correct and ignoring the facts.
    Nice argument. Either agree with me or you're wrong and being politically correct. History proves you wrong by providing examples of "African race" having stable societies. As well as examples of "high-IQ Caucasians" unstable societies.

    All you need for a stable society is cooperation.
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    That's like saying Germany was better off under the Nazis, or Soviet Russia was better off under Communism or... well, you get the picture.
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    (Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
    Nice argument. Either agree with me or you're wrong and being politically correct. History proves you wrong by providing examples of "African race" having stable societies. As well as examples of "high-IQ Caucasians" unstable societies.

    All you need for a stable society is cooperation.
    Tolerance, diversity and non-racism would be nice too... (at DDF)
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    (Original post by ScheduleII)
    Tolerance, diversity and non-racism would be nice too... (at DDF)
    Cooperation provides the basis for all that.
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    (Original post by ScheduleII)
    Tolerance, diversity and non-racism would be nice too... (at DDF)
    yeh it would, but there's no reason to assume you can have everything.
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    (Original post by thebruciebonus)
    Thankyou. Well to prove my argument wrong just point to a current model of african stability, since history is history and liable to distortion and interpretation. the world has the technology to make stability in Africa a possibility yet I cannot see where it has been achieved. They have access to the same tools we do yet... you get the picture.

    I never mentioned caucasians. This isn't about white superiority this is about african failure to make a functional society in todays age. Instead they travel to Europe or wherever to live in an established society, often making it worse [omg he did not just go there]

    And co-operation is not the only factor needed for a successful society: people can cooperate to rob a bank, can co-operate to do all sorts of bad stuff.

    Also, there is a LIMIT to tolerance. If you keep tolerating criminal behaviour you will harm society. See how well you tolerate your family member being raped or injured. In africa there is white genocide going on that the media ignores, what we should tolerate that because we feel sorry for the africans?

    This isn't racism since to be racist I would be saying all black people, or red people, or sausage shaped people are inferior. I'm not. it is objective musings on why a group of people can't succeed given all the tools other people have, regardless of skin colour. But as we know the "RACIST!!!!" card trumps logic. Thankyou and goodnight
    No, they don't have access to the same tools and resources as us. There's a reason why Ukraine isn't as successful as Britain even though both are European. There's also corruption which factors into the success of a nation and corruption has nothing to do with race. Botswana, Ghana and Gambia are said to have lower corruption rates than Bulgaria, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Albania. When you examine the reason why these countries have high corruption rates you'd see that they apply to African countries as well.

    Colonialism has contributed a lot to the failings of African society by creating countries based on the land you colonialized irrespective of history between the different ethnic groups which contributes to failure because you aren't limited to cooperating with only your ethnic group rather even ethnic groups you hate.

    If you look at crime statistics for middle-class neighborhoods in the African-American community you'd see that they have much less crime Compare this to a place like Glasgow which has a bigger gang problem than London and it's pretty obvious why race isn't a factor because all the reasons why Glasgow has a gang problem applies to London ethnic gangs as well.
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    South Africa was better off before white people came.

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Updated: June 20, 2012
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