Your undergraduate degree is nothing more than a piece of paper

I say leave them to it - the people who aren't cut out for academia will either do badly at degree level or drop out early. It's not ideal but it happens all the time, for whatever reasons. Degrees require all sorts of skills, if you're bad at essays that doesn't automatically bar you from going, you just need to identify your strengths and weaknesses and weigh up whether it's really worth it.

I think colleges are partly to blame for this, they push people into university as though that's the only option that is worthwhile (at least that was how it was at my college) and people just apply for the sake of it without putting a lot of thought into it. If colleges are going to continue pushing people into uni they should encourage people to do their research first.

Not true. My degree certificate is actually printed on some nice sepia coloured card, so there.

I know the feeling. To the dismay of my head of sixth form, I just moved down the other end of the country and worked on 'growing up'- getting a job, paying own bills etc. I'm going to university in september, two years after my a-levels and I'm glad because I feel sure about what I want to spend four years studying and racking up a huge debt for.

Simple way to resolve it. Shut down all the pretend third rate universities like Sheffield Hallam and Nottingham Trent etc; leaving just the Russell groups; we'd have more govt. money to make up for the loss of fees that would improve research plus undergrad degrees would be worth a hell of a lot more. Simple

Universities should have only academic courses with pure subjects like History, Physics, Maths

So what about your example of computer science.
A course that is often both academic and vocational?

So what about your example of computer science.
A course that is often both academic and vocational?

I'd count computer science as academic, as like with engineering there is a significant theoretical part underneath the actual 'doing' involved

Engineering is a vocational degree as it trains you for a specific profession, there are no two ways about it. It certainly isn't a "pure" subject like maths.

True it's not pure (I was being relatively nice to engineers there for a physicist),
but there is still a long way between engineering that is a mix of underlying concepts over a broad syllabus combined with actual vocational application and the type which is purely application.

I don't think you understand what a vocational degree is.

There's your homework then.

I don't think you understand the difference between completely and partially

p.s if you want my personal opinion engineering should be taught in a polytechnic anyway - but there are plenty of engineers that argue it's academic merit and you can't completely ignore them

I'm giving you a grade F for this.



Many engineers that I've worked with say that it should actually be an apprenticeship. "Engineering" isn't really taught at university anyway since there's a large difference between real world engineering and university engineering.

oh really... what is taught instead then? (remember it better be strictly vocational otherwise you're contradicting yourself) (and you have already stated that it's not)

Mainly rote learning maths and physics.

But that does not preclude it being a vocational degree. Not that you'd know this because you have proven that you do not know what a vocational degree is.

So would that be equally as vocational as somebody doing something that actually trained them to be capable in starting the career?

You can no longer get an engineering job without an engineering degree these days, even if you never use anything you were taught, which is extremely common, so you can't make that comparison.

An engineering degree is now a necessary first step in the road to becoming a professional engineer, and that is why it's a vocational degree. Engineering apprenticeships are long gone; only technician, machinist, fitter etc. apprenticeships remain.