[ExMuslim]

Has anybody read The End of Faith by Sam Harris?


At first I wasn't too sure I agreed with Harris when he said that "religious moderates are apart of the problem, not the solution", but spending two weeks on this forum has quickly changed my perspective. I've dealt with mostly the Muslim group on here and they have shown a willingness to whitewash their religion and simply deny that it can do any wrong, accusing anyone who says otherwise of being a bigot and or ignoramus. I mean even my thread where I suggested Muslims should respect the rights of women and stop persecuting gays in their societies was met with disapproval and condemnation. The actions of religious extremists like Osama Bin Laden were simply said to have no origination in Islam, even though that contradicts what the terrorists themselves are saying, and were blamed totally and solely on Western Imperialism. At every corner Muslims were going on about how their religion was so great, how it's just misunderstood by everybody yada yada yada, and there are some extremely naive people on this forum that believe every word of it.

We must condemn the so called moderates as harshly as we condemn the radicals. As Harris says "moderate religion is a menace, because it leads us to respect and “cherish the idea that certain fantastic propositions can be believed without evidence”. There is no evidence for this Islam, it's a bunch of man-made garbage that is increasingly inspiring violence around the world. It's time we make clear that our beef is with Islam in general, not just the crazies.

I invite all the atheists of this forum to take up the cause of great men like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, and the late Christopher Hitchens. The champions of our cause. Not only should we be content with our lack of belief (atheism), but we should actively undermine and attack religious belief (anti-theism). Why? Because there's no reason to respect absurd beliefs that are increasing conflict and suffering in the world.

[ExMuslim]

Sam Harris on the particular problems posed by Islam:

[Above.The.Empyrean]

As much as I admire those men, I outspokenly believe you should renege your indefatigable need to boorishly stigmatise religion/religions. Faith systems and doctrines will not be subverted by your vilifying remarks. There are Muslims who are exceptionally cordial, and of course, there are ones who are conspicuously wretched and sordid. However that is true with every creed, every race, every sentient form. I'm an agnostic pantheist, who believes that God is the Universe, that he is merely the intrinsic form of nature. He need not be Abrahamic, or the ubiquitous God of the scripture with heaven and hell, but that is my conviction. I do not have the requirement though, to assert who is right or wrong because there is no evidence. I am not supporting anyone here, but if you can provide a proof or tenet that God doesn't exist, such as a reduction ad absurdum, then sure. However, your name manifests itself to be that you'll carry on your balderdash against faiths until your very self is frail and hoary. Oh well, g'day.

As Sagan said:


“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”

[ExMuslim]

(Original post by Above.The.Empyrean)
As much as I admire those men, I outspokenly believe you should renege your indefatigable need to boorishly stigmatise religion/religions. Faith systems and doctrines will not be subverted by your vilifying remarks. There are Muslims who are exceptionally cordial, and of course, there are ones who are conspicuously wretched and sordid. However that is true with every creed, every race, every sentient form. I'm an agnostic pantheist, who believes that God is the Universe, that he is merely the intrinsic form of nature. He need not be Abrahamic, or the ubiquitous God of the scripture with heaven and hell, but that is my conviction. I do not have the requirement though, to assert who is right or wrong because there is no evidence. I am not supporting anyone here, but if you can provide a proof or tenet that God doesn't exist, such as a reduction ad absurdum, then sure. However, your name manifests itself to be that you'll carry on your balderdash against faiths until your very self is frail and hoary. Oh well, g'day.

As Sagan said:


“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”

There would be no problem with their religion if it wasn't causing so many problems in the world. You don't see me making threads about the amish or the jains, now do you? As Harris discuses in the video embedded in my second post, Islam has certain properties that renders it among the most dangerous religions in the world, such as its lack of a reform movement and its veneration of holy war and martyrdom.

As Allah said in the qu'ran:

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

[Above.The.Empyrean]

(Original post by ExMuslim)
There would be no problem with their religion if it wasn't causing so many problems in the world. You don't see me making threads about the amish or the jains, now do you? As Harris discuses in the video embedded in my second post, Islam has certain properties that renders it among the most dangerous religions in the world, such as its lack of a reform movement and its veneration of holy war and martyrdom.

As Allah said in the qu'ran:

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Jut the fingertips? That's not too bad. At least you can still play the bongos.

[Atheism]

(Original post by Above.The.Empyrean)
As much as I admire those men, I outspokenly believe you should renege your indefatigable need to boorishly stigmatise religion/religions. Faith systems and doctrines will not be subverted by your vilifying remarks. There are Muslims who are exceptionally cordial, and of course, there are ones who are conspicuously wretched and sordid. However that is true with every creed, every race, every sentient form. I'm an agnostic pantheist, who believes that God is the Universe, that he is merely the intrinsic form of nature. He need not be Abrahamic, or the ubiquitous God of the scripture with heaven and hell, but that is my conviction. I do not have the requirement though, to assert who is right or wrong because there is no evidence. I am not supporting anyone here, but if you can provide a proof or tenet that God doesn't exist, such as a reduction ad absurdum, then sure. However, your name manifests itself to be that you'll carry on your balderdash against faiths until your very self is frail and hoary. Oh well, g'day.

As Sagan said:


“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”

As far as I'm concerned, people can think whatever bullcrap they want. It's when they start oppressing others because a book says some fairy told someone to.. That's when I have an 'indefatigable need to boorishly stigmatise religion/religions.'

[ExMuslim]

(Original post by Above.The.Empyrean)
Jut the fingertips? That's not too bad. At least you can still play the bongos.

You misunderstand, sir. It says strike the head off first and then the fingertips. So no bongos for you unless you can play it headless.

[Above.The.Empyrean]

(Original post by ExMuslim)
You misunderstand, sir. It says strike the head off first and then the fingertips. So no bongos for you unless you can play it headless.

Allah has bestowed me with a gift of headless bongo 'striking'.

[lukas1051]

It seems to me like you have some personal vendetta against Islam. I agree that the oppressive laws in many Muslim countries go against basic human rights and need to stop, but they're not the fault of 17 year old British Muslim students on TheStudentRoom. When you incessantly preach about your hatred of something that is a big part of many peoples lives, and you put all people under the same umbrella, is it any wonder you receive so much criticism?

In my ideal world there would be no religion, but if people practice peacefully and respect our laws and values, who cares what they believe?

[Stalin]

Despite being a fan of Harris' work, his notion that Bin Laden and other radical Islamists are problematic due to their backward faith instead of the United States' unconditional support for Israel, its support for despotic regimes and footprint across the Middle East seems shortsighted to me.

Had he read or listened to anything Bin Laden had preached he would have a clear picture as to why 9/11 occured, and no it wasn't because of the 'freedoms' and elections Americans enjoy, nor that American women can reveal most of their body in public, but simply due to the government's meddling in the Arab world.

[ExMuslim]

(Original post by Stalin)
Despite being a fan of Harris' work, his notion that Bin Laden and other radical Islamists are problematic due to their backward faith instead of the United States' unconditional support for Israel, its support for despotic regimes and footprint across the Middle East seems shortsighted to me.

Had he read or listened to anything Bin Laden had preached he would have a clear picture as to why 9/11 occured, and no it wasn't because of the 'freedoms' and elections the Americans enjoy, nor that American women can reveal most of their body in public, but simply due to the government's meddling in the Middle East.

Osama Bin Laden wasn't just terrorizing Americans my friend.

In the country of my heritage, Somalia, Al Qadea has teamed up with a group called Al Shabab and is actively destabilizing a country that is 100% Muslim. Since when have Somalis sponsored Israel? Since when have Somalis invaded other countries? Never. Al Qadea isn't simply about fighting back against western imperialism, it's also about promoting the dogmatic islamic views of its followers around the world.

[ExMuslim]

(Original post by lukas1051)
It seems to me like you have some personal vendetta against Islam. I agree that the oppressive laws in many Muslim countries go against basic human rights and need to stop, but they're not the fault of 17 year old British Muslim students on TheStudentRoom. When you incessantly preach about your hatred of something that is a big part of many peoples lives, and you put all people under the same umbrella, is it any wonder you receive so much criticism?

In my ideal world there would be no religion, but if people practice peacefully and respect our laws and values, who cares what they believe?

1/3rd of British Muslims believe violence in the name of religion is justifiable.

They need to be preached to in the hope that they will change their views.

[ConstantlyStressed]

(Original post by ExMuslim)
My point? I was mocking your absurd comment.

LOL @ "if you haven't got anything nice to say about Islam-say nothing at all"

Islam makes extraordinary claims for itself. It believes that it's the truth from the creator of the universe. I see they've already made a mental dhimmi at of you since you are saying nothing negative can be said about a religion which makes such claims but provides little evidence for itself.


How would you feel if I said something like "If you don't got anything nice to say about republicans, don't say anything at all". You'd laugh at the absurdity of the comment no doubt.

Why don't you answer Lukas's comment? Clearly makes sense to me. And why don't youead answer my question, instead of picking out the parts you enjoy to challenging?

I asked you why you bother making such ridiculously titled threads that criticise Islam as a whole religion. Has it not occurred to you that this is a STUDENT site, meaning that you're actually targeting young Muslim students. It's just ridiculous.

[ExMuslim]

(Original post by ConstantlyStressed)
Why don't you answer Lukas's comment? Clearly makes sense to me. And why don't youead answer my question, instead of picking out the parts you enjoy to challenging?

I asked you why you bother making such ridiculously titled threads that criticise Islam as a whole religion. Has it not occurred to you that this is a STUDENT site, meaning that you're actually targeting young Muslim students. It's just ridiculous.

Yes, that's lovely their young Muslims. It's easier to get young people to rebel against their parents faith by instilling the seeds of doubt. Besides I'm a young person myself thus obviously I will post in a young person's forum .If the forum wasn't meant for this, then why is there this section? Why isn't there a rule saying NO CRITICISM OF RELIGION ALLOWED. Maybe the forum owners want people to challenge the beliefs of others? Is there anything wrong with that, no. Besides, it's not like I've been making up things. Whatever I say about Islam I can support using the quran and hadith and the fatwas of prominent ulema (clerics).

[Stalin]

(Original post by ExMuslim)
Osama Bin Laden wasn't just terrorizing Americans my friend.

In the country of my heritage, Somalia, Al Qadea has teamed up with a group called Al Shabab and is actively destabilizing a country that is 100% Muslim. Since when have Somalis sponsored Israel? Since when have Somalis invaded other countries? Never. Al Qadea isn't simply about fighting back against western imperialism, it's also about promoting the dogmatic islamic views of its followers around the world.

I'm well aware of this. His campaigns in Somalia, Yemen, Afghanistan and Iraq stem from his views on Sharia, that restoring God's law will set things right in the Muslim world. His life was devoted to resisting western domination and combating regimes that fail to rule according to Islamic law.

The point I'm trying to make, however, is this: Harris, like many Americans, has conveniently bypassed the fact that Bin Laden's actions against the U.S. and, in turn, the amount of jihadists joined his cause occured not because Islam is a barbaric religion, but because of the actions ordered by the President of the United States.

For the record, I think it is a barbaric religion.

[ExMuslim]

(Original post by Stalin)
I'm well aware of this. His campaigns in Somalia, Yemen, Afghanistan and Iraq stem from his views on Sharia, that restoring God's law will set things right in the Muslim world. His life was devoted to resisting western domination and combating regimes that fail to rule according to Islamic law.

The point I'm trying to make, however, is this: Harris, like many Americans, has conveniently bypassed the fact that Bin Laden's actions against the U.S. and, in turn, the amount of jihadists joined his cause occured not because Islam is a barbaric religion, but because of the actions ordered by the President of the United States.

For the record, I think it is a barbaric religion.

He used the actions of U.S Presidents to embellish his casus belli.

If the U.S were to suddenly pull out of the Middle East and stop supporting Israel, while that may diminish slamic radicalism it won't eliminate it.

The main reason for the war, going past all the rhetoric about western imperialism, is the belief of the terrorists that wahabi islam must rule the earth and all must submit to it. If they're not waging defensive jihad, they'll be waging offensive jihad, which is legal in Islam to expand the borders of "daruul Islam" (the house of Islam).

[TheHistoryStudent]

I haven't read the book but I did watch that vid you posted - was actually quite interesting

That said though I haven't read the quran either, so I'm not really at liberty to comment on what he's saying without going reading it myself, and even then, it'd be stupid to take the book literally... but if he's right about what he's saying, then I think that Islam (although not necessarily all muslims) would pose some kind of threat to the modern world...

anyway - as a matter of interest, are you an ex-muslim as your username suggests? If you are and you dont mind me asking, how did you come to leave your faith and why? You say you're of Somali origin so is it down to the Islamic Al-Shabab movement and their pretty brutal actions?

[Dragonfly07]

(Original post by ConstantlyStressed)
Seriously? I've seen at least two or maybe three other threads you've created, all consisting of Islam and how it's a "dangerous" religion..

(Original post by lukas1051)
It seems to me like you have some personal vendetta against Islam.

So what if he has a personal vendetta against Islam? I have a personal vendetta against oppression, inequality, racism and many more things, as I'm sure you both do as well.

I have my own religion (orthodox Judaism) which I abandoned and now I criticise it constantly because of my awareness of its harmful nature to its own followers. I'm the best person to make those criticisms considering I have been a part of it and I probably know more about it than other people.

Let him criticise. He's not being racist and he's not saying muslims are ****. Muslims are the people who are the most oppressed by their own religion.

[Ignoramus]

(Original post by ExMuslim)
Has anybody read The End of Faith by Sam Harris?


At first I wasn't too sure I agreed with Harris when he said that "religious moderates are apart of the problem, not the solution", but spending two weeks on this forum has quickly changed my perspective. I've dealt with mostly the Muslim group on here and they have shown a willingness to whitewash their religion and simply deny that it can do any wrong, accusing anyone who says otherwise of being a bigot and or ignoramus. I mean even my thread where I suggested Muslims should respect the rights of women and stop persecuting gays in their societies was met with disapproval and condemnation. The actions of religious extremists like Osama Bin Laden were simply said to have no origination in Islam, even though that contradicts what the terrorists themselves are saying, and were blamed totally and solely on Western Imperialism. At every corner Muslims were going on about how their religion was so great, how it's just misunderstood by everybody yada yada yada, and there are some extremely naive people on this forum that believe every word of it.

We must condemn the so called moderates as harshly as we condemn the radicals. As Harris says "moderate religion is a menace, because it leads us to respect and “cherish the idea that certain fantastic propositions can be believed without evidence”. There is no evidence for this Islam, it's a bunch of man-made garbage that is increasingly inspiring violence around the world. It's time we make clear that our beef is with Islam in general, not just the crazies.

I invite all the atheists of this forum to take up the cause of great men like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, and the late Christopher Hitchens. The champions of our cause. Not only should we be content with our lack of belief (atheism), but we should actively undermine and attack religious belief (anti-theism). Why? Because there's no reason to respect absurd beliefs that are increasing conflict and suffering in the world.

I guess I just don't understand what's wrong with the principle that matters of metaphysics can be believed without evidence.

[Atheism]

The problem is when you oppress others because of your baseless 'metaphysical' views.

And it's not just islam. Christianity has done so, and continues to do so. (Gay rights is a currently prominent example)