[justanotherposter]

(Original post by tpxvs)
Lol. seriously, thanks for making me laugh

I'm here all weekend. (The 3 minutes left of it at least.)

[britchick]

Anyone who's familiar with David Reimer's case will know past evidence shows that biology (genes and hormones) overrides rearing of a child. It also led to him and his identical twin committing suicide due to the trauma it caused them and their family.

Spoiler:

Show

There was a malfunction with the circumcision procedure and he had his penis burnt off as a baby - Dr Money (famous psychologist at the time who had a lot of experience with sex change patients etc) convinced David's parents to rear him as a girl since he believed children acquire gender through learning and how they're reared. They also used his twin brother as a control so they could compare the effects of biology and rearing.

To cut a long story short, David grew up very confused and always felt he was a boy. He was heavily bullied at school and he didn't understand what was wrong with him. Many years later his parents told him and his brother separately the truth. Initially David was relieved as it explained why he felt the way he did, and didn't blame his parents as they'd only tried to do what's best for him. However after some time, both twins took the news badly and had been traumatised from Dr Money's unethical and inappropriate sessions over the years. The twin brother died of a drug overdose (supposedly suicide) and David shot himself in the head.

If anyone's interested on the whole story properly explained here's the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUTcwqR4Q4Y

It concludes with "Nature, as far as gender identity is concerned, cannot be overriden by nurture."

[miser]

Is there a moral distinction between choosing a baby's gender medically during the first trimester and eating a load of carrots (or any other superstition) to try and influence gender at the date of conception?

I'm trying to look at the idea of being able to choose your baby's gender from non-biased perspective. I don't like the feeling of people being able to do that, but I can't find any rational reason why leaving it to nature should be more virtuous than intervening. Is there a good argument aside from, "it sounds horrible"? It should be allowed in the absence of a good reason why not to; the burden of the argument is on those who would ban it. I'm not decided on the issue - but this is a discussion - so what is the reason why not?

[ufo2012]

(Original post by OU Student)
That's two different things though.

I don't agree with choosing gender at all. I can understand needing to choose healthy eggs over ones with genetic diseases.

It is, but choosing gender is probably the first step in that direction towards eradication (as mentioned) also being accepted.

[Blazara]

(Original post by CJKay)
I don't know why, but I'd feel uncomfortable if my parents had one day turned around and said, "you know, we CHOSE you to be a boy ". Did I really want my parents having control over my gender?
And what if the kid turns out gay too? That'd be ironic.

No it wouldn't, unless they chose the child because "I want them to like girls", which seems a weird factor in deciding a child's fate.

(Original post by ufo2012)
It is, but choosing gender is probably the first step in that direction towards eradication (as mentioned) also being accepted.

What exactly is the issue with trying to prevent disabilities existing? Nobody is saying "kill all the people with it", and any such mention of that is just a BS slippery slope argument. Frankly, natural selection has for the longest time attempted to 'breed out' disability - doing it medically seems to me only a progression on this.

[richiemayne]

(Original post by CJKay)
I don't know why, but I'd feel uncomfortable if my parents had one day turned around and said, "you know, we CHOSE you to be a boy ". Did I really want my parents having control over my gender?

I don't understand why that would make you feel uncomfortable. My parents CHOSE to have me (or at least that's what they tell me). If they hadn't made that conscious decision I wouldn't be here. Does it bother me? Not really. If they chose for me to be a boy I wouldn't really be bothered either.

[Sternumator]

I haven't decided my opinion on it yet. It is such a big question, for the first time ever humans as a life form have the power to decide on our own genetics and make future humans into whatever we want.

[ufo2012]

(Original post by Blazara)
What exactly is the issue with trying to prevent disabilities existing? Nobody is saying "kill all the people with it", and any such mention of that is just a BS slippery slope argument. Frankly, natural selection has for the longest time attempted to 'breed out' disability - doing it medically seems to me only a progression on this.

I don't understand the question?

I am in agreement with trying to prevent disabilities.

Are you trying to tell me that you think some years ago when the medical ppl suggested pregnant women should start taking folic acid to avoid their kid having spina bifida that they were wrong?

[katyness]

Yes.

[tallen90]

(Original post by tpxvs)
Lol. seriously, thanks for making me laugh

Don't hate; contribute.

I'd say no...it just feels like a bad idea!

[cyfer]

(Original post by Xiomara)
I don't know. If you agree with the idea that a woman's body is hers to do as she wishes with and no one else can interfere with that, then yes. So basically if you're pro choice.

I don't really think it's necessary though, but if as you say it's expensive, then I hope many people wouldn't be going for it. I'd hate to see a gender imbalance in this country like what's going on in China and a few other Asian countries right now.

There is already a problem as female infanticide occurs in china so the gender difference is skewed something like 80% males vs 20% females in some areas.

1 Child policy and everything.

[willbee]

It's a difficult one, but I know that my uncle in Ireland always wanted a son, and so he kept having kids until he got one, meaning he divorced his first wife over her refusal to have any more children and he now has 7 daughters and 1 son. I wouldn't mind, except that he couldn't really afford to have that many kids, which meant social services took some of the girls for a few years and the girls were all made to feel like disappointments because they weren't the desired gender. But then if he'd been able to control the genders of his children, I wouldn't have some of the coolest cousins ever.

And tbh, I think parents should be as accepting of their child as they can be. I know that my dad was over the moon when I was born, because he wanted his first-born to be a boy. 19 years later and he is somewhat disappointed with the way I turned out (not being a clone of him), and I'm not what he expected, but he still loves me and does his best to accept me as I am.

I think controlling their kids' gender is a bit ridiculous. Its like the local young "yummy mummies" who were at the Jubilee celebrations and kept banging on about how they only let their kids play with wooden toys and eat organic food and do organic poops, because that was good for the environment or whatever. I think you can have hopes for you child, but what if you have a daughter and she turns into a tomboy and the mum is angry that she paid to have a girl and she didn't get the sort of girl she wanted. Or she gets a son like she's always wanted, but asks for a refund because he is gay... I'm not keen on parents having that much control over their child, having unrealistic expectations for an unborn person. They will get the chance to mould the child with upbringing and environment, and anything further and children and people become commercialised products, IMO.

[britchick]

(Original post by willbee)
It's a difficult one, but I know that my uncle in Ireland always wanted a son, and so he kept having kids until he got one, meaning he divorced his first wife over her refusal to have any more children and he now has 7 daughters and 1 son. I wouldn't mind, except that he couldn't really afford to have that many kids, which meant social services took some of the girls for a few years and the girls were all made to feel like disappointments because they weren't the desired gender. But then if he'd been able to control the genders of his children, I wouldn't have some of the coolest cousins ever.

Sounds like a Henry VIII tactic!

[Philbert]

You can do it by sorting the sperm, but I don't know how widely this is avaliable for sex-preselection.

In theory, I agree with it, but in practice it could skew the sex ratios of certain countries massively.

(Original post by miser)
Is there a moral distinction between choosing a baby's gender medically during the first trimester and eating a load of carrots (or any other superstition) to try and influence gender at the date of conception?

Sex is determined at conception.

[Sir Fox]

No. We are not supposed to alter nature to that extent. Everyone should have the decision whether to produce life (therefore abortion is and should be legal), but choosing the gender would have serious consequences. Just think of all the societies and countries where the gender of your children is important for your prestige and imagine what would happen if choosing the gender would be possible in these countries - surely this planet would soon be covered with men who don't find women

[Negaduck]

An interesting theory that I need to find out more about.

My initial thought is that if it is readily available we will seen an increase in the proportion of the male gender to the femae gender but that is merely speculation. I think the consequences would have to be thouroughly researched before this choice is made available.

[LETSJaM]

No. Look at china, where many girls are abandoned at birth over boys leading to a 60m gender imbalance. That is a rudimentary version of choosing the sex.

<3 x

[CJKay]

(Original post by Blazara)
No it wouldn't, unless they chose the child because "I want them to like girls", which seems a weird factor in deciding a child's fate.

And for what reasons would you prefer a certain gender?

[CJKay]

(Original post by richiemayne)
I don't understand why that would make you feel uncomfortable. My parents CHOSE to have me (or at least that's what they tell me). If they hadn't made that conscious decision I wouldn't be here. Does it bother me? Not really. If they chose for me to be a boy I wouldn't really be bothered either.

For me, choosing my gender would also feel like they'd chosen a religion for me, or even birth circumcision. Choosing to have you is a lot different from choosing who you are.

[FSP]

No, everyone is equal and should be treated as such. Once you start picking and choosing you end up getting designer babies and damaging self esteem of children who came from families where parents could not pick