[younglawyer]

I know they're a part of the process and it's bound to happen with it being so competitive. But I've been out of university a year now and worked in some medium sized law firms. Am I too 'premature' in the sense that I'm expecting too much pre-BPTC?

I do have a few more to hear back from, but it seems like no one is really giving me a sniff, tad bit depressing.

Would be nice to hear from people.

Many thanks

[seraphina]

Hi, I think it's fair to say that most people probably have a slightly higher success rate at getting interviews when applying during/post-BPTC, though whether that's due to the course or just being a bit more experienced at the whole process is debatable. That said, not getting any interviews at all would suggest that there's one or more of the following problems going on:

1)You're aiming too high in terms of the type of Chambers you're going for. It's really easy, even as a pretty good candidate, to overestimate where you've got a reasonable chance on your first attempt. Check the CVs of recently recruited tenants at the sets you've been rejected from - do they sound substantially better than yours?

2)You've got fundamental problems with your CV that are going to be difficult to rectify eg. didn't get a 2.1, went to a relatively low ranked university. The extent to which it's possible to get over issues like this is a bit of an ongoing debate on this forum and one I don't have the energy to wade into. Suffice to say if this is the problem doing the BPTC isn't magically going to make it better next year.

3)Your application is missing some of the tick-box requirements - mini-pupillages, pro bono, mooting are the ones that immediately come to mind, having some other extra-curriculars that are interesting/eye-catching/impressive would be great too. The good thing is that this is easy to rectify - just get adding these things to your CV. It's probably easiest to do so during the BPTC but you ought to be able to do most of them beforehand too.

4)You application wasn't written very well - take a critical look at it and ideally get someone else to do so. On the most basic level, is the grammar and spelling okay? More subjectively, have you given well written, compelling answers to the questions?

Alternatively of course, you could just have been unlucky. You only have to skim read this forum to see that there are people with really impressive CVs who don't get a pupillage and that the same person can be rejected without interview at one set and offered a pupillage at another very similar one.

In conclusion, don't let it get you down (hey, you haven't heard from all of them, maybe you'll get an interview tomorrow!) but try and think honestly about whether any of these things apply to you and if so what you could do to make things better next year.

[old glory]

(Original post by seraphina)
Hi, I think it's fair to say that most people probably have a slightly higher success rate at getting interviews when applying during/post-BPTC, though whether that's due to the course or just being a bit more experienced at the whole process is debatable. That said, not getting any interviews at all would suggest that there's one or more of the following problems going on:

1)You're aiming too high in terms of the type of Chambers you're going for. It's really easy, even as a pretty good candidate, to overestimate where you've got a reasonable chance on your first attempt. Check the CVs of recently recruited tenants at the sets you've been rejected from - do they sound substantially better than yours?

2)You've got fundamental problems with your CV that are going to be difficult to rectify eg. didn't get a 2.1, went to a relatively low ranked university. The extent to which it's possible to get over issues like this is a bit of an ongoing debate on this forum and one I don't have the energy to wade into. Suffice to say if this is the problem doing the BPTC isn't magically going to make it better next year.

3)Your application is missing some of the tick-box requirements - mini-pupillages, pro bono, mooting are the ones that immediately come to mind, having some other extra-curriculars that are interesting/eye-catching/impressive would be great too. The good thing is that this is easy to rectify - just get adding these things to your CV. It's probably easiest to do so during the BPTC but you ought to be able to do most of them beforehand too.

4)You application wasn't written very well - take a critical look at it and ideally get someone else to do so. On the most basic level, is the grammar and spelling okay? More subjectively, have you given well written, compelling answers to the questions?

Alternatively of course, you could just have been unlucky. You only have to skim read this forum to see that there are people with really impressive CVs who don't get a pupillage and that the same person can be rejected without interview at one set and offered a pupillage at another very similar one.

In conclusion, don't let it get you down (hey, you haven't heard from all of them, maybe you'll get an interview tomorrow!) but try and think honestly about whether any of these things apply to you and if so what you could do to make things better next year.

What kind of law are you thinking of (i.e. criminal or commercial is the basic question)? If it's commercial, than anything less than a oxford/cambridge/imperial 1st is going to be hard to rectify.

I think the old rule was that you're either an Oxbridge double first or your dad's a judge or there's no use applying. The only thing that's changed is that nepotism has been stamped out, so the second option's out.

[younglawyer]

(Original post by seraphina)
Hi, I think it's fair to say that most people probably have a slightly higher success rate at getting interviews when applying during/post-BPTC, though whether that's due to the course or just being a bit more experienced at the whole process is debatable. That said, not getting any interviews at all would suggest that there's one or more of the following problems going on:

1)You're aiming too high in terms of the type of Chambers you're going for. It's really easy, even as a pretty good candidate, to overestimate where you've got a reasonable chance on your first attempt. Check the CVs of recently recruited tenants at the sets you've been rejected from - do they sound substantially better than yours?

2)You've got fundamental problems with your CV that are going to be difficult to rectify eg. didn't get a 2.1, went to a relatively low ranked university. The extent to which it's possible to get over issues like this is a bit of an ongoing debate on this forum and one I don't have the energy to wade into. Suffice to say if this is the problem doing the BPTC isn't magically going to make it better next year.

3)Your application is missing some of the tick-box requirements - mini-pupillages, pro bono, mooting are the ones that immediately come to mind, having some other extra-curriculars that are interesting/eye-catching/impressive would be great too. The good thing is that this is easy to rectify - just get adding these things to your CV. It's probably easiest to do so during the BPTC but you ought to be able to do most of them beforehand too.

4)You application wasn't written very well - take a critical look at it and ideally get someone else to do so. On the most basic level, is the grammar and spelling okay? More subjectively, have you given well written, compelling answers to the questions?

Alternatively of course, you could just have been unlucky. You only have to skim read this forum to see that there are people with really impressive CVs who don't get a pupillage and that the same person can be rejected without interview at one set and offered a pupillage at another very similar one.

In conclusion, don't let it get you down (hey, you haven't heard from all of them, maybe you'll get an interview tomorrow!) but try and think honestly about whether any of these things apply to you and if so what you could do to make things better next year.

Hi!

Many thanks for the reply, no I'm quite understanding of the way the Bar works, so I've gone to a red-brick, got the 2.1 blah blah. It's just a bit depressing since I've been applying since my 3rd year and success has been pretty low. Although I haven't really expanded my search into London or the other major cities since I want to stay local. Although, I don't think if you're a Bar student now, you have that privilege of targetting local sets.

But really well-rounded answers that I will definitely take on board

[younglawyer]

(Original post by old glory)
What kind of law are you thinking of (i.e. criminal or commercial is the basic question)? If it's commercial, than anything less than a oxford/cambridge/imperial 1st is going to be hard to rectify.

I think the old rule was that you're either an Oxbridge double first or your dad's a judge or there's no use applying. The only thing that's changed is that nepotism has been stamped out, so the second option's out.

I'm aiming for the common law Bar, I'm not set on a big set or anything like that. I'd be happy with a medium/small set in the regions. I've targeted different sets in all the civic cities this year, but I have a feeling that since I'm going for the common law bar they may want to see how good I am on my feet? - I have had success at mooting in the past, but maybe they want to see my BPTC grades?

[Ewok]

(Original post by younglawyer)
I know they're a part of the process and it's bound to happen with it being so competitive. But I've been out of university a year now and worked in some medium sized law firms. Am I too 'premature' in the sense that I'm expecting too much pre-BPTC?

I do have a few more to hear back from, but it seems like no one is really giving me a sniff, tad bit depressing.

Would be nice to hear from people.

Many thanks

The way I look at it is that chambers will shortlist the top 10% to interview. Have you done enough to put you in that top 10%? A lot of people will have a 2:1 from a Russel Group Uni, work experience and a few ticks on the mooting box. Have you got any particularly interesting extra curriculars or can you push yourself with any of your hobbies to make them particularly successful (playing for your region/a national team in something?)? Have you done any particularly notable work experience or pro bono work?

The other thing that people rarely seem to mention (although I expect most do understand) is that the form itself is a test of written advocacy. Are you writing it well and putting effort in to ensure that every single word is right? It's important and I reckon it plays a much larger part in pushing a maybe into the 'yes' rather than the 'no' pile than people expect.

Don't get too disheartened- the statistics do suggest that perseverance pays off in the end. Best of luck with the rest- keep applying!

[jjarvis]

(Original post by Ewok)
the statistics do suggest that perseverance pays off in the end.

Do they? People are more likely to fail to get pupillage than to get pupillage...

[Forum User]

(Original post by jjarvis)
Do they? People are more likely to fail to get pupillage than to get pupillage...

I wonder what the stats are like for those that do persevere - i.e. keep applying until their bar qualification is stale? Do most people just fail a couple of times and give up?

[younglawyer]

(Original post by Wildman)
I know people who have given up after one failed round - more than you would imagine.

There is only so much rejection that a human being can take and different people have different thresholds. Some may crumple up and die after a couple of knock backs, for others it will take 100 of them. But everyone has their limit.

I reckon that the numbers drop off rapidly the further you get from BPTC. I would be surprised if any great number at all apply in their 4th and 5th years. You do hear stories about people who get pupillage after this time - the fact that these stories are so few and far between is probably only to do with the fact that these are the few who stick it out.

Hi,

Okay, I'll list what I've done so far and you can maybe give me a brief idea of what I need to be doing. Financial constraints and the fact that I'm from out of London prevents me from doing certain things such as FRU and internships in London (non-funded). Here's a list of things I've done:

* AAA at A-level
* Good 2.1 from Birmingham University in law
* Studied post-grad in Bioethics at Oxford
* Was a Property Paralegal for a leading firm in North Yorkshire.
* Worked as a Commercial Litigator in the Midlands for a while, this involved substantial litigation/advocacy experience.
* Was a BBC Researcher for a short while.
* Committee member for STAR
* Semi-finalist of the University moot
* Various mini-pupillages in and around the Midlands
* Was a legal advisor for Mills & Reeve's legal clinic
* Founded my own small company in Birmingham.
* Have been published in America and also in EU Law Weekly.
* Scholarship from the University of Birmingham and Prize from Lawtel.
* District Football Team Captain and runner-up of a domestic cup.

Having looked at that, is it simply a case of the 'stage' I am at, i.e. pre-BPTC or is there something missing on there? - I haven't been given a scholarship this year, which I know will have some effect particularly at the bigger sets. Advocacy is hard to come by pre-BPTC but I managed to land a role that allowed me to do that.

Any suggestions will be very much appreciated!!!

Thanks guys once again

[Shearn]

Did you get bad A-levels or GCSEs? Do you have the right to work in the UK?

From that list you look very impressive and if you're not applying just to the top 10 commercial sets in London it's puzzling why you haven't even had interviews. Have you had someone from an Inn, or who is a barrister, take a look at your CV?

[Nigel85]

It's a solid CV but the reality is that there are lots of people currently on the BPTC who have similar results and experience, and seem to be getting no more than 1 or 2 interviews this year. I think you should make sure your CV is tailored very specifically to the sets you're applying to. In particular, if you're applying to chambers in London then you should do more minis there. As you say, success in a mooting competition will help but there are some very good and experienced mooters in Inn and provider BPTC competitions and it's tough to do well in them without a lot of luck and skill. Your lack of a scholarship will also be a bit of a hindrance because most solid candidates seem to have scholarships for the BPTC. FRU is on so many CVs that it will only help if you have done 3 or 4 cases with real experience that you can talk about; and even then it will depend very much on whether the sets you're applying to value FRU experience highly or not.

I don't want to be too negative because my experience of how people are doing this year suggests to me that with targeted applications you stand a reasonably good chance of getting a couple of interviews next year. The problem is that, again, there are so many good candidates that it's very hard to convert first round interviews into pupillage offers! Personally it took me about six first round interviews before I got an offer, though obviously this number varies hugely.

Whether you spend money on the BPTC is completely your decision. You seem to be a good, intelligent and committed candidate who deserves pupillage. But I have so many friends this year who are also in that category and are already out of this round of pupillage applications having spent £16,000 on the BPTC. If there's any chance that you might be happy as a solicitor then I do recommend looking into that option as well, bearing in mind that you can always come to the Bar later and it's a lower risk option because you might find a firm that will pay your LPC fees.

Good luck though. You've clearly done a lot of research and work experience and I hope it all works out!

[Nigel85]

It would also be helpful to know which sets you've applied to. I wonder if your best chance is to target your work experience a bit more. If you like property law, focus on this because they won't be as interested in your commercial litigation or employment experience, for example. Sadly I don't think the commercial sets generally interview anyone without a 1st or significant experience in a city law firm.

[younglawyer]

(Original post by Shearn)
Did you get bad A-levels or GCSEs? Do you have the right to work in the UK?

From that list you look very impressive and if you're not applying just to the top 10 commercial sets in London it's puzzling why you haven't even had interviews. Have you had someone from an Inn, or who is a barrister, take a look at your CV?

GCSEs - 10A*-A
A-level - AAA

I've applied everywhere, and I've applied to sets in London. I stayed away from the top ten because I haven't got a scholarship from the Inns.

My university grade has inconsistencies, in that I received a 3rd in one module in my final year and still got a good 2.1. I got a couple of 2.2s along the way in the first and second year, but still bagged 2.1s. So I'm just unsure what it is preventing me getting that first round :/

[Lawrasawrus]

I'd agree with Seraphina and say it is probably down to one of those four things. Remember, as harsh as it sounds, even one spelling mistake could cost you rejections and if that mistake was on a PP app that locked in once you'd applied to the first one it will have gone to all 12.

My opinion, and that's all it is, is that there are quite a few impressive things on your CV: scholarship, lawtel prize, published work - but there is nothing fun or interesting that stands out. Clearly you can't put "I like to go to the pub on a Friday night" and in your full CV you may well include one line that shows your personality, for example, you like walking your very lively golden retriever - it just shows you're a real person and when selecting a pupil the committee are looking for someone who they will enjoy having around, for a year and then as a tenant.

One final thing, if you're pre-BPTC I'd advise not paying the money upfront to do it. I'd say go and get life experience, work in the law as a paralegal or similar and avoid having the pressure and cloud of debt hanging over you. Whatever you've done this year will then massively set you apart and make you stand out in the next round. Good Luck.

[tcqc]

The whole system seems quite strange and arbitrary to me. I got an offer pre-BPTC from the first place I interviewed at but during interviews later on (before offers came through in August) I had one where it transpired that my application was full of spelling mistakes and I had even done things like put my age in the 'date of birth' box and stupid things like that. I had rushed off the form with some lazy copying and pasting 10 minutes before the deadline and subsequently got torn apart in the interview for all the mistakes but I never understood why they even interviewed me in the first place if it was going to be a problem.

I get the impression that in truth, the strength of your CV will either get you an interview or it won't. Based on my own experience I do wonder how much difference the application itself really makes. You do have a good CV though so I'm not sure why you wouldn't get any interviews.

[AverageExcellence]

Maybe your social skills or confidence aint up to scratch

[younglawyer]

(Original post by AverageExcellence)
Maybe your social skills or confidence aint up to scratch

Thanks for the replies everyone!

You've probably hit the nail on the head, I've been in employment (throughout university) so never really had the time to invest in anything outside. So maybe that's something to consider now or during the BPTC stage.

I know Chambers like 'unique' people, like in a Manchester set there was a swimmer who represented England and the other was an underwear model. But for those of us who are 'normal' what could I do? General volunteering, abroad etc?

[AverageExcellence]

(Original post by younglawyer)
Thanks for the replies everyone!

You've probably hit the nail on the head, I've been in employment (throughout university) so never really had the time to invest in anything outside. So maybe that's something to consider now or during the BPTC stage.

I know Chambers like 'unique' people, like in a Manchester set there was a swimmer who represented England and the other was an underwear model. But for those of us who are 'normal' what could I do? General volunteering, abroad etc?

Youve clearly got good work experience and academia, I dont think the bar are expecting you to be an olympic standard sportsman or a model. You're there because youve got the skills to represent and argue a case on points of law.

Maybe you should look at expanding your audience and making yourself more appealing, Maybe learn another language, do volunteering in your local magistrates or community to show that you're genuinely passionate about society and your duty (as a potentional barrister) to it.

I wish you the best of luck!

[Ewok]

(Original post by younglawyer)
Thanks for the replies everyone!

You've probably hit the nail on the head, I've been in employment (throughout university) so never really had the time to invest in anything outside. So maybe that's something to consider now or during the BPTC stage.

I know Chambers like 'unique' people, like in a Manchester set there was a swimmer who represented England and the other was an underwear model. But for those of us who are 'normal' what could I do? General volunteering, abroad etc?

I hear what you're saying- I had a chat with a barrister and a Manchester set (possibly the same one?) and she told me that when they sift through pupillage applications they like pick out the interesting stuff- she said they'd chosen someone who was a belly dancer because they thought it sounded interesting. It's very much a way to choose which of the very good candidates should get an interview- it's not the reason they give the interview.

I don't think it's something you should get yourself down about. It's not a necessity but it can help to make you stand out. If you have anything quirky about yourself then do try and put it in your form somewhere (I usually find the last sentence of the 'any other interests' bit is a good space for it). If you have any hobbies you may find it worth your time pursuing them so you get to a point where you can write about it (national/regional levels, more knowledge than your average amateur) then it may well be worth it. Don't get too worked up about it though- it's something that help but it's not essential.