Danny says we can all have a tax cut...
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Danny says we can all have a tax cut...We could (note use of the word could) have two pence off the basic rate of income tax if everyone stopped engaging in aggressive tax avoidance, which he says is as morally repugnant as cheating on benefits.
Though, of course, one is legally hanging onto your own money whereas the other is illegally hanging on to someone else's, so a funny kind of moral equivalence, in my book.
According to HMRC, if we plugged all avoidance and evasion we could pay down the deficit in five years.
Does anyone really believe this crap - tax cuts, paying off the deficit and, no doubt, pots of gold at the end of rainbows?
Well, firstly if they know how much tax is being dodged then surely they know how, in which case why hasn't anything already been done about it?
But then, if they’re only really guessing then it's probably just the usual public sector scaremongering to secure more money and resources for HMRC, which, such is the concern amongst the politicians about avoidance, is actually being cut back – something doesn’t quite add up there then does it?
So here we are, all loopholes plugged, so when does all that lovely money start rolling in and we wonder where it will all come from?
Surely, it takes a huge leap of naiive faith to believe that tightening up the tax laws, even if done successfully, would automatically translate into extra revenues.
Aggressive tax avoidance is morally repugnant but where is the morality to be found in paying your tax?
Watching it being spent on aircraft carriers (without any aircraft), NHS computer systems, two wars, management consultants, crap schools (mostly teaching left wing crap handed down from your nearest socialist Town Hall), windmills, traffic cones hotlines, oh and of course, the wonders of the EU. -
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Re: Danny says we can all have a tax cut...Whole point of loops holes is that they are holes in the law. Plug them and more form. Its a never ending battle. They are hard to plug and its easier to find holes than to plug them it requires difficult and complex changes in the law. The better paid, and in some cases no doubt better trained accountants and lawyers rich people hire will no doubt always be one step ahead. Not that we should't try but to put your eggs in one basket and to rely on closing tax loopholes to pay up the deficit would be madness.
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Re: Danny says we can all have a tax cut...Perhaps a flat tax rate at parity with the corporation tax rate would be a good way to stop some of these schemes.(Original post by Aj12)
Whole point of loops holes is that they are holes in the law. Plug them and more form. Its a never ending battle. They are hard to plug and its easier to find holes than to plug them it requires difficult and complex changes in the law. The better paid, and in some cases no doubt better trained accountants and lawyers rich people hire will no doubt always be one step ahead. Not that we should't try but to put your eggs in one basket and to rely on closing tax loopholes to pay up the deficit would be madness. -
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Re: Danny says we can all have a tax cut...The government makes the rules. It can make anything it likes illegal. If it doesn't, it's a fundamental principle of English law that I am free to do it. It's too onerous for anyone to have to think "What would Jesus do" or "What would the government like me to do if it could be bothered to think about it", which are questions that have no answer. If the government wants to make things illegal then it should bloody well get on with making them illegal, not stand on the sidelines crying foul and hoping that everyone's a mindreader and can see what they might be thinking.
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Re: Danny says we can all have a tax cut...Hmmm. I agree that closing tax loopholes won't pay the deficit, however, does the fact the loopholes may always exist stop us from closing them asap?(Original post by Aj12)
Whole point of loops holes is that they are holes in the law. Plug them and more form. Its a never ending battle. They are hard to plug and its easier to find holes than to plug them it requires difficult and complex changes in the law. The better paid, and in some cases no doubt better trained accountants and lawyers rich people hire will no doubt always be one step ahead. Not that we should't try but to put your eggs in one basket and to rely on closing tax loopholes to pay up the deficit would be madness.
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Re: Danny says we can all have a tax cut...David Cameron's inheritance wouldn't be so large if it wasn't for these loopholes.(Original post by AspiringGenius)
does the fact the loopholes may always exist stop us from closing them asap?
They will remain. -
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Re: Danny says we can all have a tax cut...It is most important to realise that the, rather too good to be true, K2 (what Jimmy Carr is doing) avoidance scheme is still under review by HMRC.(Original post by AspiringGenius)
Hmmm. I agree that closing tax loopholes won't pay the deficit, however, does the fact the loopholes may always exist stop us from closing them asap?
A number of expert commentators, in the media, have stated that they would be very surprised if K2 turns out to be legal.
Note, that, for every avoidance scheme tax professionals come up with, to be legal, they have to be declared and then explained in full to HMRC.
HMRC has a long history of deliberating, for several years, on avoidance schemes before giving its verdict.
For the (non) taxpayer, this means there is great risk in spending any avoided tax, lest HMRC comes back for it later.
It wouldn't be the first time some wealthy, greedy but stupid fool has paid for the advice they wanted to hear, only to be taken to the cleaners by HMRC later.Last edited by marcusfox; 26-06-2012 at 09:08. -
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Re: Danny says we can all have a tax cut...Avoiding tax like Carr attempted to do (i.e. almost entirely) is unlikely to ever actually be within the law. The main problem is that HMRC have very limited personnel and resources to pursue these kind of schemes.(Original post by marcusfox)
It is most important to realise that the, rather too good to be true, K2 (what Jimmy Carr is doing) avoidance scheme is still under review by HMRC.
A number of expert commentators, in the media, have stated that they would be very surprised if K2 turns out to be legal. -
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Re: Danny says we can all have a tax cut...I think the idea that "the rich" are somehow squirrelling away an unlimited fund of money - sufficient to pay down the deficit - is beyond Harry Potter and entering the realms of proper fantasy.
There are actually not that many very wealthy people - and their tax liabilities are only a fraction of their wealth. Even if every "rich" person avoided 100% of their liability, I cannot imagine that we'd be looking at a whole lot more than ten billion pounds - which would be about enough to run the NHS until Thursday. -
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Re: Danny says we can all have a tax cut...Tax avoidance is theft - you're knowingly taking something the law says you're not entitled to. Its no better or worse than benefit fraud.
If you don't like the way UK government revenue is being spent, then vote for another party who would spend it differently. If you still don't like it, then simply end your contract with the UK government and find another country to live in. Its a free exchange. -
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Re: Danny says we can all have a tax cut...Why should we hand over any more in tax than is absolutely necessary? It's all very well claming that the state provides us with essential services such as the NHS and pensions etc, but as we all know due to Labour's economic catastrophe those services cannot be guaranteed in the medium/long term. Forcing money out of people for "services" that may never be delivered is fraud and theft, so we have every right to keep our productivity for private consumption.(Original post by py0alb)
Tax avoidance is theft - you're knowingly taking something the law says you're not entitled to. Its no better or worse than benefit fraud.
If you don't like the way UK government revenue is being spent, then vote for another party who would spend it differently. If you still don't like it, then simply end your contract with the UK government and find another country to live in. Its a free exchange. -
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Re: Danny says we can all have a tax cut...Since when where these services not delivered? As far as I can see the NHS is still running and no-one is being denied their state pension. Any forecast of their demise is extremely premature.(Original post by chefdave)
Why should we hand over any more in tax than is absolutely necessary? It's all very well claming that the state provides us with essential services such as the NHS and pensions etc, but as we all know due to Labour's economic catastrophe those services cannot be guaranteed in the medium/long term. Forcing money out of people for "services" that may never be delivered is fraud and theft, so we have every right to keep our productivity for private consumption.
You have no right to keep anything that the law says it not yours. If you're not satisfied with the way the government is doing its job, then campaign for a new government. -
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Re: Danny says we can all have a tax cut...agreed i bet they still use the roads and the hospitals and vote etc(Original post by internetguru)
It is your obligation as a citizen to pay your share of the tax. -
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Re: Danny says we can all have a tax cut...I think if people wish to opt out of tax they should be allowed to: however they would not be permitted to use the roads or walk on the pavements, or on any public land, and they should have a mark painted upon their heads so that anyone could see that they were not receiving the protection of the police and the legal system, so any form of torture/murder/robbery was fair game.(Original post by kopite493)
agreed i bet they still use the roads and the hospitals and vote etc
So, any volunteers who think still think paying tax is a bad deal? -
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Re: Danny says we can all have a tax cut...The government keeps putting the state pension age UP while demanding ever increasing sums in national insurance. How is that fair? They keep shifting the goalposts and offering increasingly unattractive terms while demanding absolutely loyalty when it comes to paying tax. If they're not prepared to stick to their promises I don't we why should be made to stick to ours.(Original post by py0alb)
Since when where these services not delivered? As far as I can see the NHS is still running and no-one is being denied their state pension. Any forecast of their demise is extremely premature.
You have no right to keep anything that the law says it not yours. If you're not satisfied with the way the government is doing its job, then campaign for a new government.
As for the law, well if the law said that all jews should be rounded up and put in the deathcamps immediately would it receive your unqualified support? The law isn't always right, sometimes we have to use our brains when it comes to differentiating between right and wrong. -
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Re: Danny says we can all have a tax cut...Which is why we replaced the government, because they weren't doing a particularly good job at managing the economy.(Original post by chefdave)
The government keeps putting the state pension age UP while demanding ever increasing sums in national insurance. How is that fair? They keep shifting the goalposts and offering increasingly unattractive terms while demanding absolutely loyalty when it comes to paying tax. If they're not prepared to stick to their promises I don't we why should be made to stick to ours.
No, if the government proposed that I would vote for a different government. I thought I explained that already?As for the law, well if the law said that all jews should be rounded up and put in the deathcamps immediately would it receive your unqualified support? The law isn't always right, sometimes we have to use our brains when it comes to differentiating between right and wrong. -
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Re: Danny says we can all have a tax cut...so we replace them with bigots murderers and traitors(Original post by py0alb)
Which is why we replaced the government, because they weren't doing a particularly good job at managing the economy.
No, if the government proposed that I would vote for a different government. I thought I explained that already? -
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Re: Danny says we can all have a tax cut...The point is that there are various arguments about what level government spending should be, how it should be spent and how it should be raised; all of these are topics worthy of discussion. But the claim that it is somehow illegitimate for a government to raise compulsory taxation and to prosecute those who refuse to pay is simply nonsense. Prosecution for tax evasion is simple enforcement of contract - the contract in this scenario being one of the clauses of UK citizenship.
The idea that tax is "your money" that is being taken off you is a somewhat naive viewpoint. All money belongs to the government - it even says so on the notes - and they've legitimately decided that its in the nation's best interest that you take home a certain percentage to spend as you see fit and the rest will be spent on your behalf for the good of society. Most people understand that although they don't particularly like receiving less money, for the level of public services they benefit from both directly and indirectly, its actually an absolute bargain.
