[Harmonia Dragon]

Predicting a Majority-Muslim Russia

by Daniel Pipes



"Russia's Turning Muslim, Says Mufti" is the startling headline in the Times of London today. Ravil Gaynutdin, head of the Council of Muftis of Russia, announced that Russia's population of 144 million contains 23 million ethnic Muslims – and not, as the census indicates, 14.5 million, or, as the Orthodox Church estimates, nearer to 20 million. An estimated 3-4 million Muslims are migrants from former Soviet regions, including 2 million Azeris, 1 million Kazakhs, and several hundred thousand Uzbeks, Tajiks and Kyrgyz."

"Goble notes the exponential growth in Islam since the demise of the Soviet Union: Russia had about 300 mosques in 1991 and now there are at least 8,000, about half of which were built with money from abroad, especially from Turkey, Iran and Saudi Arabia. There were no Islamic religious schools in 1991 and today there are between 50 and 60, teaching as many as 50,000 students. The number of Russians going on the hajj each year, has jumped from 40 in 1991 to 13,500 in 2005. He quotes a Russian commentator predicting that within the next several decades there will be a mosque on Red Square."


"By 2015, Muslims will make up a majority of Russia's conscript army, and by 2020 a fifth of the population."

July 15, 2009 update: More from Medvedev, this time while visiting the Central Mosque in Moscow, where he stressed the importance of Islam in the Russia. "Russia is a multi-national and multi-confessional country. Russian Muslims have enough respect and influence. Muslim foundations are making an important contribution to promoting peace in society, providing spiritual and moral education for many people, as well as fighting extremism and xenophobia. There are 182 ethnic groups living in Russia, and 57 of them claim Islam as their main religion. This figure speaks for itself." He also promised the government would continue to assist with funding organizations to train imams and teachers.

Aug. 30, 2011 update: A sense of the Muslim numbers and solidarity can be seen from the Eid al-Fitr prayers on the streets of Moscow recently.

http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005...im-russia.html


Ethnographers: Russia will have a Muslim majority “within our lifetime”

DURBAN, South Africa- Paul Goble, vice Dean of Social Sciences and Humanities at Concordia-Audentes University in Tallinn, Estonia said ethnographers predict that Russia will have a Muslim majority “within our lifetime"

"He said that 2.5 million to 3.5 million Muslims now live in Moscow, giving Moscow the largest Muslim population of any city in Europe.

Russia today has more than 8,000 mosques, up from just 300 in 1991.

"Experts predict that by 2010 some 40 percent of Russian military conscripts will be Muslim."

http://www.factjo.com/FACTJO_EN/fullnews.aspx?id=506

Rise...

[Cyanohydrin]

Daniel Pipes is a dubious character btw.

If true, should be interesting to see if there are any mutinies with regards to dealing with Chechnya.

[Super Cicero]

I read that the Soviet government was fearful of this back in the 1970s - they believed that the Red Army would soon be majority Muslim and that the Islamic Central Asian states posed the greatest long term threat to the USSR. Well, the "muslims taking over" scenario never happened in the Soviet Union, despite fears, so I doubt it will happen now, especially since Russia has lost control of Muslim majority republics.

Also, when I visited Moscow a few months ago, I saw hardly any Muslims at all, so again, I think this whole article is a bit dubious.

[Iqbal007]

Ok.....so whats your point about their being a Muslim Majority Russian army

nor does the report seem very accurate or credible due to the sources

[Arbolus]

Is it really surprising that there were so few mosques in 1991, considering that the Soviet Union did its best to suppress all religious activity? I bet that if you looked at the statistics for churches and synagogues you'd find that their numbers have exploded as well.

[Perseveranze]

Why would any Muslim, in their right mind, join an army, that is killing Muslims? It's just beyond me or any Islamic theology to justify it. If they joined to gain intelligence of the enemy, then that's fine. But that wouldn't make it become a majority.

Also highly doubt Russia are that stupid, given their past/current affairs with Afghanistan and Chechnya.

Thus I call this report false.

[Rat_Bag]

(Original post by Super Cicero)
Also, when I visited Moscow a few months ago, I saw hardly any Muslims at all, so again, I think this whole article is a bit dubious.

Because these "tens of millions" of Muslims in Russia are about as religious as Church of England Christians. While the Muslims from Central Asia are somewhat distinct, most Caucus Russian Muslims look just like Slavic Russian Christians, and even less observant.

But there are large numbers of "Muslims" in Moscow, maybe about 1 million out of a population of 10 million, you wouldn't know they were Muslim at all.

[Rat_Bag]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
Why would any Muslim, in their right mind, join an army, that is killing Muslims?

Plenty of Muslims join military wings of Al Shabab and the Taliban, and these armies kill Muslims.

[Perseveranze]

(Original post by Rat_Bag)
Plenty of Muslims join military wings of Al Shabab and the Taliban, and these armies kill Muslims.

Not really, they kill government sell outs/tyrants and their supporters. Taliban, especially is holding resistance against foreign invaders.

[navarre]

(Original post by Super Cicero)
I read that the Soviet government was fearful of this back in the 1970s - they believed that the Red Army would soon be majority Muslim and that the Islamic Central Asian states posed the greatest long term threat to the USSR. Well, the "muslims taking over" scenario never happened in the Soviet Union, despite fears, so I doubt it will happen now, especially since Russia has lost control of Muslim majority republics.

Also, when I visited Moscow a few months ago, I saw hardly any Muslims at all, so again, I think this whole article is a bit dubious.

Very true. The Soviet authorities were very concerned with the exponential rise in the populations of the central Asian Republics, which had a high birth rate compared to Russia's falling birth rates. The Politburo's decision to invade Afghanistan was based partly on the fear that the Muslim Republics on the border may be infiltrated by extremists.

Of course, their fears amounted to nothing, especially when the USSR disintegrated. I doubt this report means anything- it's very hard to predict future demographic trends, especially in terms of religion.

[Snagprophet]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
Why would any Muslim, in their right mind, join an army, that is killing Muslims?

Syria? Iraq?

[Rat_Bag]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
Not really, they kill government sell outs/tyrants and their supporters.

Are these sell outs and their supporters Muslim or not?

(Original post by Perseveranze)
Taliban, especially is holding resistance against foreign invaders.

Not before 2001 they weren't. Most of their time was spent fighting the military wings of Northern Alliance, Hezb-e-Islami Gulbuddin, Hezbe Wahdat, and Junbish-i-Milli Islami Afghanistan, all of them Afghan Muslim armies.

[NuckingFut]

(Original post by Snagprophet)
Syria? Iraq?

The Syrian gov is secularist.

[Perseveranze]

(Original post by Snagprophet)
Syria? Iraq?

Defo have a point there, though many Muslims don't even consider Awalites Muslims (since most have beliefs entailing shirk).

But you're right, the people in the Afghan army for example, instead of fighting the invaders who are killing Muslims, are defo in the wrong.

I mean, people can say whatever they want about Taliban. But technically, they have every right to fight against the USA, and when the Afghan government/military is standing in the way of that, then Taliban's cause is a lot stronger than theirs. At least as far as rights are concerned.

Good thing is though, many of them are defecting, just like the Syrian army.

[robin22391]

(Original post by Harmonia Dragon)
Predicting a Majority-Muslim Russia

by Daniel Pipes



"Russia's Turning Muslim, Says Mufti" is the startling headline in the Times of London today. Ravil Gaynutdin, head of the Council of Muftis of Russia, announced that Russia's population of 144 million contains 23 million ethnic Muslims – and not, as the census indicates, 14.5 million, or, as the Orthodox Church estimates, nearer to 20 million. An estimated 3-4 million Muslims are migrants from former Soviet regions, including 2 million Azeris, 1 million Kazakhs, and several hundred thousand Uzbeks, Tajiks and Kyrgyz."

"Goble notes the exponential growth in Islam since the demise of the Soviet Union: Russia had about 300 mosques in 1991 and now there are at least 8,000, about half of which were built with money from abroad, especially from Turkey, Iran and Saudi Arabia. There were no Islamic religious schools in 1991 and today there are between 50 and 60, teaching as many as 50,000 students. The number of Russians going on the hajj each year, has jumped from 40 in 1991 to 13,500 in 2005. He quotes a Russian commentator predicting that within the next several decades there will be a mosque on Red Square."


"By 2015, Muslims will make up a majority of Russia's conscript army, and by 2020 a fifth of the population."

July 15, 2009 update: More from Medvedev, this time while visiting the Central Mosque in Moscow, where he stressed the importance of Islam in the Russia. "Russia is a multi-national and multi-confessional country. Russian Muslims have enough respect and influence. Muslim foundations are making an important contribution to promoting peace in society, providing spiritual and moral education for many people, as well as fighting extremism and xenophobia. There are 182 ethnic groups living in Russia, and 57 of them claim Islam as their main religion. This figure speaks for itself." He also promised the government would continue to assist with funding organizations to train imams and teachers.

Aug. 30, 2011 update: A sense of the Muslim numbers and solidarity can be seen from the Eid al-Fitr prayers on the streets of Moscow recently.

http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005...im-russia.html


Ethnographers: Russia will have a Muslim majority “within our lifetime”

DURBAN, South Africa- Paul Goble, vice Dean of Social Sciences and Humanities at Concordia-Audentes University in Tallinn, Estonia said ethnographers predict that Russia will have a Muslim majority “within our lifetime"

"He said that 2.5 million to 3.5 million Muslims now live in Moscow, giving Moscow the largest Muslim population of any city in Europe.

Russia today has more than 8,000 mosques, up from just 300 in 1991.

"Experts predict that by 2010 some 40 percent of Russian military conscripts will be Muslim."

http://www.factjo.com/FACTJO_EN/fullnews.aspx?id=506

Rise...

they said this kind of stuff about the irish...that they all had 6 children and would outbreed us within 50 years....its all bull****

[Perseveranze]

(Original post by Rat_Bag)
Are these sell outs and their supporters Muslim or not?

In the basic sense yes, they are still tyrants that have a right to be fought against. Even Mubarak/Ben Ali/Gaddafi, are (until someone can prove me otherwise) Muslims in the basic sense, even if they've deviated from the Islamic message.

But no one should be joining their side that is killing Muslims. You fight oppressors, whether they are Non-Muslim or Muslim, you don't join them.

(Original post by Rat_Bag)
Not before 2001 they weren't. Most of their time was spent fighting the military wings of Northern Alliance, Hezb-e-Islami Gulbuddin, Hezbe Wahdat, and Junbish-i-Milli Islami Afghanistan, all of them Afghan Muslim armies.

And most of them just a bunch of tribal warlords. One of them had to gain power, and it could've been more peaceful, but you can't expect things to go perfectly everywhere you go.

[robin22391]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
Defo have a point there, though many Muslims don't even consider Awalites Muslims (since most have beliefs entailing shirk).

But you're right, the people in the Afghan army for example, instead of fighting the invaders who are killing Muslims, are defo in the wrong.

I mean, people can say whatever they want about Taliban. But technically, they have every right to fight against the USA, and when the Afghan government/military is standing in the way of that, then Taliban's cause is a lot stronger than theirs. At least as far as rights are concerned.

Good thing is though, many of them are defecting, just like the Syrian army.

the syrian army needs to stay strong, we cant have these dogs ruining another civilised country just like libya...the majority of syrians want the terrorist rebels to put away their guns and assad to remain for the time being...who are the western powers to decide that these alqaeda soldiers should overthrow a country occupy cities and cause havoc. its almost like the usa wants to destroy the region rather than spread so called democracy.

[jaadau121]

(Original post by Rat_Bag)
Plenty of Muslims join military wings of Al Shabab and the Taliban, and these armies kill Muslims.

They are terrorist groups not armies.

[Rat_Bag]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
In the basic sense yes, they are still tyrants that have a right to be fought against. Even Mubarak/Ben Ali/Gaddafi, are (until someone can prove me otherwise) Muslims in the basic sense, even if they've deviated from the Islamic message.

But no one should be joining their side that is killing Muslims. You fight oppressors, whether they are Non-Muslim or Muslim, you don't join them.

So you answer your own question, that you asked in your first post on this thread : "Why would any Muslim, in their right mind, join an army, that is killing Muslims?"

And I love this "right to be fought against" that these tyrants have.

(Original post by Perseveranze)
And most of them just a bunch of tribal warlords.

Including the Taliban.

(Original post by Perseveranze)
One of them had to gain power, and it could've been more peaceful, but you can't expect things to go perfectly everywhere you go.

No you can't. You should even expect women and children to get killed in the process too.

[Rat_Bag]

(Original post by jaadau121)
They are terrorist groups not armies.

I would classify them as armies myself